Proverb co-founders, Kirstie, and Luke Sherriff met at Oxford University from where Luke signed a professional rugby contract playing for 11 years in the topflight of English rugby. Understandably he developed a dedication to elite health, diet, and wellbeing. His career was literally based on sweat and mud. In 2005 while playing at Harlequins RFC he was introduced to the concept of endocrine disruptors within beauty products related to a potential negative impact on performance by a new fitness & nutrition coach Phil Richards who went on to train Amir Khan and currently Eddie Hall, The World’s Strongest Man. With over 20 years of skin expertise, Kirstie was listed as the Number One Most Influential Person in the Natural Beauty Yearbook ‘Who’s Who’. In 2019 they product crowdfunded their Proverb Refillable Deodorant. Customer reviews have included ‘This is the Tesla of Deodorants’ and ‘This isn’t a run of the mill deodorant; it is something much better.’
In this episode of the MenswearStyle Podcast we interview Luke Sherriff, Co-Founder of Proverb about his professional rugby background and how he met co-founder Kirstie whilst at university. Together they teamed up to create a plant powered skincare brand. Our host Peter Brooker and Luke talk about sustainability, using natural ingredients, the process of launching a new beauty product, how lab testing works, what makes their deodorant unique, the dangers of using antiperspirant, and future plans to sell products from gyms and spas.
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Hello and welcome to another episode of the menswear style podcast. I'm your host Pete Brooker and today I'm talking to the co founder of Proverbs skin Luke sherif. Proverb skin. Their mission is simple to make amazing clean, natural and organic products that are better for human health and performance. The planet and its people. Their passion is to help people think, feel and look better, so they can make the most out of everyday and together they can give back to the people who need it the most. Their journey has already started with their refillable natural deodorant and hand sanitizer and now more than ever, they need people like you and pointing to the microphone for no reason. People like you to help them have as big an impact as possible. So more information can be found at obviously all the products and everything that we talk about is over at proverb skin.com But here to describe proverbs skin in his own words, his co founder, Luke share, the short answer is a natural skincare routine made simple and sustainable. So really, and we were I think on the questions you sent over probably the place to start is my background and and how I got into this and why that tagline is woven all the parts of it. So a very brief history of time Kirsty the other half of everything, and I met University went to Oxford together I studied human sciences, which is a studies of humans their interaction in the environment. Turns out a lot of time thinking about human health I then did a master's in epidemiology and infectious disease so for those of my friends I thought that was ridiculous waste of time. Any relevant for the law in your face all those friends from you know exactly, then we are passed away in case I've been together since university but our paths diverged in that. I was like you're afraid pressure, I bet harlequins and then not him. So I really selfishly continued my journey in health and performance, which is a big part of who I am. And what gets me up in the morning Kirsty's passion was beauty spa. So she set up sort of about 2008, we set up our first skincare brand called pinks boutique, which is focused at spas, it's also a station organic, really lovely handmade stuff. And the reason that exists is because of my experience in fitness and health where GEICO for riches came along. The guy was still in contact with his trained Eddie Hall recently really knows his stuff, but was very ahead of his time really, in 2006. When we met him talking about endocrine disruptors, toxins you can absorb in your skin, things you should be avoiding everyone. Peak Performance and curses eyes lit up when she was like, Wait a second, I teach and train people in beauty. And I've no idea what's in the product. So that was a new rica moment where she sort of re looked at it on a wireless camera, right. And people are bathing in their stuff literally, barfing and washing using Yeah, on their skin, especially in spas. So that was the impetus to launch drinks boutique and really get into what you should be looking for in a product and I really based on the level of like the ingredients how they perform. I was testing stuff in the showers at Rugby at that point. Much jokes about things, boutique spas, etc. But we've come a long way in last five years. And so I've always been interested in that side of it as well as part of your morning routine. How many products you might well use in a day it's it's quite a lot. I mean, curses over well over 20 and probably over 10 Even if you just looking at shower gel hair gel toothpaste. Now wash cleanser. Yeah, I may use a few more than the average. But yeah, it's still a fair amount every day and talking to Phil over the years and just trying to look at the way we packed ourselves and things you want to do positively for yourself. Yeah, scenario with case taxes and skincare my expertise in health that we thought we could bring to a wider audience and just as bar audience with proverbs. So that's why we wanted to launch that. And that happened in 2017. And then COVID happened. And so we went from being in retail stores to degree to actually focusing online, which is where we are, have been for the last year or so focusing online. And going back to the tagline The idea is to keep it simple. So for lots of people getting into it if they've if they're perfect proficiency in mind, they're looking for performance as quickly as possible. Sometimes things get over complicated. So we try and break it down to as few steps as possible which I think Lots of audience is resonates with them. And then a sustainable side of it is going all the way back to the beginning of my degree in human size and how we interact our environment that's on the individual health level, which I'm really passionate about. But it's also linked into how we impact the planet and how that's now coming back to somewhat potentially bite us in the backside. So I think all brands are looking at it, and you certainly see from advertising mail. So that's good. But we want to set price as a statement of truth or honesty is basically, in packaging in our business as a whole wherever we can. We're trying to make steps forward, but it's not perfect. I mean, I don't anyone that sort of makes it out. They've got the perfect, sustainable business. I hope they have. But I don't feel I think there's a lot going on behind that. So we try and be as honest as we can and iterate every chance we get when we produce anything from a new brochure to how it's printed, to the packaging and the products. And that's that's where we are now trying to inspire people to make better choices for their health through the products they used to start with the right way. So, Luke, personal question for you. Yeah. Do you have a shared bathroom with Kirsty we risk tema share this running joke that she's allowed everything? So yes, the only the one thing that I'm adding here is going to work immediately. But we aren't you just mentioned that you were looking to move we are for the first time since we moved up to the Midlands, looking to move house now the kids are a bit bigger. And her dream is to maintain a shared bathroom but have our own sinks. So yes, that will be that'll be a life goal for her. I think we definitely share the same space. But if it was big enough for our own products, I think I think Kirsty and my girlfriend would get on very well, because we're like you say we're moving in about a week's time. My girlfriend and I, and she's very excited about having two separate bathrooms. I don't really care about bathrooms. I mean, I've got a couple of products in the shelf. But you know, I don't own as much real estate in the bar from as Anastasia my girlfriend does. I am excited about having an office studio at the end of the garden. That's kind of like where my head's at. Yeah, nice. She's shopping around for the, for what I can do my own bathroom and what she can do in her own space. Because I felt like a woman in the bathroom. That is, I mean, in the morning, especially that's like 95% of the time where she is glued? Well, it's it sums up our monitors in case for me, it's just we do we get up at the same time we go before the children, we do some exercise. That's a big part of staying there in the right way. But I get approximately 10 minutes to get ready if you get about 50. So in that 10 minutes has to be pretty efficient, which is where we come back to like keeping it simple. You know, two, three, maybe four products. Yeah, deodorant, body wash, face wash and moisturiser. And I think if you do those consistently morning and night, you get the result that yeah, I'm certainly I'm I'm looking for. To be fair, there is a lot of makeup and hair that goes into casting. As you can see, I don't advise me just yet. Although, maybe one day No, no. What, why the kids need getting ready. That's that's my role in all this. Yeah, yeah, I get it, I think I think people are looking for things. But for us, yeah, it's a range of products that you want to use and feel the best when you walk out the door. And for me, I can do that in 10 minutes, which is great for Kirsty a lot of the aesthetics and added extras take a bit longer. The only time that I actually get agitated with my girlfriend is when I can't find my stuff in the bathroom because I only like I say I only have about a couple of bits. And then it's swamped in the hole tubs and containers of lotions and potions and whatnot. And I just say Can I just have like my one thing that I can find at the front because that's all it is. It's just at the front. I mean, I do moisturise, yeah. And give you man has to partake in that procedure. But maybe you can talk about some of the ingredients he did touch upon it earlier about how there was a eureka moment where we were putting the wrong stuff in you're using the wrong stuff and the wrong products. And what kind of what distinguishes yours with the right products? Yeah, so the I think the simplest because he phrase the term bottles and is that when she in 2004 is going all the way back to them when she first of all, you know, started looking at this and then 2006 more in depth. When you turn a bottle. It was kind of like I don't understand what's in this. You know, when you look at food ingredients actually there's probably a large amount of that goes on as well. But you know, for some of you you can absorb through your skin like it seems odd that a lot of those words seem very Scientific and not very clear and, and going through a phase in our life where we're trying to improve our forest and health and looking at the food we ate briefly, and seeing that we wanted to eat organically or naturally weapons were possible, it became obvious that that wasn't as clear to the consumer. At that point, we were more than consumers were people training people in beauty products. So it was like, what, it wasn't our brand at this point, it was a number of other brands, it was just a training. So things that we started in. So Casey went back and talked to Phil, and were like, you know, what should we be avoiding, he's like, Well, you should be looking for natural natural diversity as well as possible, if not, organic versions of it. And Kirsty's does a much better version of this no disco picture with a tree and everything, kind of breaking ingredients down into how they're manufactured, how they're made. And to be clear, is all about saving fruit, just because it is produced, in a certain way make in a lab, that doesn't mean it's bad, necessarily. But it's just for consumers to understand first and foremost. So there is those things that are produced in a manufacturing facility from a number of components and are essentially not natural. Now plenty of people will go well, everything comes from nature. And that's fine, I understand that. But what we're looking at is trying to find things that you can, you can find in nature and use as close to that as possible, without as with as little processing as possible. So anything like, you know, salt, sea salt, I think there's natural but not farmed. Can't be organic. So organic is like the top and the most expensive to produce. It has to be grown in soil. So the Soil Association, the name is a way other people that accredit things as organic in this country, both cosmetics and food, so as to be grown in in the soil has to be therefore looked up, in a way they don't use a whole host of chemicals, obviously, a, you know, very careful about pesticides. And that through them is a way of finding out the product is actually the highest standard, but it's very expensive to produce that the yields are lower, you know, you have to, you know, go through less processing. And so you get a very potent ingredient, which is as close as possible to its original format, whether it be cold pressed when you get the oil out of it. And that's, that's kind of the gold standard, but in the middle are natural versions of that. So you can still have a tree because here's the tree like an apple tree could be grown in organic soil without any pesticides, with all the standards being met, and you get an apple at then that's organic, obviously, an apple is natural, and you could just that can grow in nature without any of those things. But you wouldn't necessarily know or have been put on it in terms of like pesticides, everything. And then there's, you know, someone completely generating a fragrance out of a synthetic nature in a lab. So he's like the individual like sections of ingredients. But for the consumer, that can be really confusing. So going back to where it's like, if you understand what it says, as an ingredient, when you turn the bottle around, there's a pretty good chance it's natural, organic. And that's a good place to start. There's then a whole list of things that over the years have become quite common, like touchpoints, like parabens, sodium lauryl, sulphate ingredients that have consistently been marked as having bad outcomes if you use too many of them. And so for us, the difficulty is, you know, somebody will show you an ingredient, and they'll say, Oh, I've got a lot of data that says it's, it's slightly safe. And then every other people that say, oh, there's this gradient, and it's terrible for you, our stances? If you wouldn't eat it, I wouldn't want to put it on me. And if ultimately, it comes from nature, and yeah, there's nothing bad being said about it, then that's a good place to start. So yeah, it is it is difficult to put concisely. And so that's one of the things about in pinks, we use a sore association to their third party rotation and say We believe these manufacturers Safeway, the shift came in profile when we wanted to maintain those standards. But there were other ingredients that sought Association, either because they aren't grown or because they their scope of ability to test every product in the market is not there every ingredient. We then took our knowledge from that. And when we produced profile, we went to the next level, which is we want at least natural, even organic, but it to produce a result, a lab proven result. And that's where anything really my backgrounds like you want to be able to measure that result is why are we using these agreements? Well, number one, we think they're safe because we've looked To the data on whether they're safe, we want to produce them in a way that's more sustainable, so natural, organic. And then we want to produce a result. And that means either we've tested our ingredients together as a combination that we have with our moisturisers to prove that they moisturise, or the individual ingredients that we've chosen come from a place has done their own independent testing, so that we're delivering results, as opposed to being caught somewhere in the middle where you can either be a natural brand, which is can be good or natural going on. But it's kind of nice to have might not demonstrate any results. Or you can have a synthetic, completely made up ingredient list, which has got some great scientific results about it. But are you 100% confident about putting that on your body to learn from and bridge the gap between the two to find natural lab proven ingredients and formulas that deliver results in a safe way. And they're made in the UK? The products are manufactured? Yeah, all manufactured in the UK. That's a that's, that's been very good. During the last two years, to be honest. We're always wanting that to be the case. We're very involved in that side of things. But at the same time, it's been very useful as a disruption over the last few years that we've been less disruptive and potentially other brands or products being made outside the UK. How long did it take so like when you had the germ of the idea to kind of getting prototypes in your hand visiting, you know, the manufacturer before actually having the final product, launching it on the site and seeing it out in the flesh? So it took us two and a half years, which, which doesn't sound very quick. But when when you bear in mind that we had the background of another brand of product formulation, we'd already done it before once Yeah, it didn't feel like it was taking us too long. Obviously then COVID hit so it feels like 2022 is actually like a relaunch almost minds. But yeah, the original branding content like ingredient choices then getting the products tested. Because if you're going to do some of the testing, which we didn't test the moisturisers proving that they work, or just bet you're basically meeting all the standards to produce your cosmetic. A year would be very quick. So two and a half. It seemed to seem to go quite quickly, Luke potentially stupid question, but how can you prove a moisturiser works? What are those tests? So you send it to an independent lab and they measure the moisture in someone's skin before they put it on. And then they put the moisturiser on and then over to our periods, they continue to measure the moisturising levels of skin. And they measure that against a base as someone with no moisturiser and then we actually had it measured against a competitor moisturiser as well just to standard. And then they can sort of measure over those numbers, they may give you a measure of how long it lasts and the efficacy of it, right, it kind of measure like fine lines and wrinkles and stuff like that, that's a separate thing. So there's a I mean, it's it's a very, it's a it's a it's an expensive process, and it's it can be a long process, but you can do a number of things that you can do that so some of the ingredients we have have been tested for fine lines and they do like as you imagined or they take a photo and record really high resolution photo and then now use the product regularly for a week or two weeks and then take another photo at the end and compare them and we just have the moisturization done for the whole product as in all the ingredients put together but we have data for the individual ingredients within some of our products that demonstrate those efficacy the for the one that makes me laugh is the deodorant one which is if you want to deodorant tested we were like how do they do that? And we spoke to the lab that do these tests and they're like, are we send it to Paris and they get some people to put it on and then they get into like stand around in a lab all day and then somebody has this mess around but it's the end of you telling me that you don't have a guy on a desert island sprays armpits and then a horde of women in class come swarming around. Not unless your links Africa but yeah, so that says our salary exam a little bit more sort of touchy feely, but most of it is, was done with no more, shall we say? No more objective measurements. Right. Okay. That's interesting. Well, you you mentioned the origin there, but I know that there is a crowdfunded one of the origin products. So can you just talk about what makes your deodorant different as well? So this is back in 2019. July, was built before that, or seeing this just sort of a journey. As I said, a lot of brands have gone on, but we were looking at or launching a deodorant. And the packaging was was really sad to bug me at that point, he told me the beginning of all of this, that packaging will be the biggest challenge. I would have been surprised. But yeah, with wanting to produce it in a sustainable way, I'll educate the consumer how to use it. There are some limitations. There's there are very few perfect solutions, as I said, but I just sat down and thought I can't I can't get my head around how we, you know how we do this in a way that isn't putting unnecessary practice in the wild and the original product rains. And as I said, we've iterated that we've just launched moisturising glass, which is much more readily recycled than plastic reloads, as they're called come without a pop upon so that the bitters the least recycled can sort of be kept reused. That came off the back of this project into as a nice emoji agent where we knew our audience would buy into a brand more easily they use put like that, and we wanted to be a top quality product. Here it is. Okay. But I'll explain that in a second. But it sort of led us to think how could it be done better and refilling? What you already have seems to make sense in reduces injuries, plastic, that and then the deodorant world and this isn't very useful, because I know that you can see me but the people listening for the podcast, Luke's gonna show us the deodorant up to the camera is a solid state deodorant. So you imagine a candle basically, which screws out of the other case? Yeah, like, yeah, right, good. When that comes, then instead of discarding the case, we just send you a solid state refill wrapped in paper, which is possible. And then you just screw that back in your case. And that way, hopefully, that case can last a very long time. And this hasn't been done before. Well, that people, people in the US have done it. And there are brands that have done it since but when we crowdfunded it, and 2019, we're the first people, we also raised 10,000 pounds for WaterAid. Through doing it, we didn't want the crowdfunding itself to do anything other than help us launch the product and do some good. So so they were a kind of partner with us. So that had a double win in that case, and we got the product to the ground and launched it in officially died just January 2020. So that was the official first one in the UK, which has been a couple of cents, there's a few different mechanisms for doing it. We like the size of ours, we like the feel of ours, the three levels of strength is something that's unique. So there's formulations for people that are transferring over from, say, an aerosol or anti personal things. Remember, his deodorants are about reducing the bacteria that produce the smell, they don't stop the sweat. Whereas an empty person will block out the pause again, not certainly feel is very natural, and start to sweat, which in turn stops some of the smell. So yeah, they're natural with some of the other competitors are but we have three levels. So we have one for people that we call the active level, or they're coming from an aerosol deodorant, so they're waiting and expecting a higher or a different level of efficacy. So just when you move over from a non natural deodorant, there could be a period where your body adapts and the product you use or comes out your pores and you have to wait to explain this in our packaging. So for some like that, and some are very active all day will we would use that strength then as a core strength which has one less ingredient in bicarbonate sober, which we take out because some people can be allergic to that. So that's another really high efficacy product, but just with a slight variation knowing that people have different skins and then we have a sensitive one for people again that don't react well to fragrance even though our fragrances are essential oils. Some people don't get well so then as sensitive and unfreedom one so they can really pick what works best for lifestyle. Some people have both or a couple of different strength depending on what they're doing in the day. So that's that's good as well. But they're vegan plant based. We've had hundreds of positive reviews, and the advocacy has been really well received. So for people that are looking to, to look for natural products, because they're concerned about what they're putting on their product on themselves, but they also want the results that's all so it goes back to the core of the brand which is taking stuff that's natural and safe and producing a result then then the day was really good start it's obviously a product that a lot more people use, I think the penetration of deodorant in the market and I was talking some of my friends in market research is like 92%. So that's pretty high for a product, although they made me laugh, because on the data that they had toilet roll was only 90%. So statistics. Yeah. Whereas whereas Yes, skincare is more like 60%. I had a question. And I have thought about this for a long time about antiperspirant. So you mentioned it there about how you feel like the body should naturally sweat, it's kind of what the body wants to do. And anti purse print is almost like that fight. Fighting? Yeah. Is there any like, experience that you've come across with some of the research that eludes, you know, that affirms that theory that any person isn't really the future for us. There's a, there's a, an infographic and one of the cancer awareness websites, which talks about aluminium, which is in a lot of manufacturers as being something to avoid. So, again, like I said, in the discussion of angry as always very careful not to say this causes this and you just go along, and try and find as much evidence as you can, but something like that, that's, therefore, you're going into a poor and potentially going into your bloodstream, which is known to have had some unfortunate side effects for some people, it just seems to go back to the core of what we do, which is not wanting to put unnecessary things on our body that, yeah, that might be harmful. And, and although the result, as you say, is fairly effective, like the blackout report, kill the bacteria at the same time, you've got a pretty good chance of not smelling or sweating. Yeah, I don't do it for obvious reasons. And I think more and more people are conscious that going against, you know, that whole wellness industry is kind of fascinated me. And we do get massively sidetracked by my feelings towards wellness, like, yeah, it's a massive industry. And it's a hopefully people are getting the benefit they want out of it. But the idea is to make people feel better, make people feel happier, and get in touch with their mindfulness and a lot of the a lot of the things that people develop to create those, in my mind to add more stress to someone's life. So stressing your body unnecessarily never seems like a good idea. So that's why I avoid doing things to it that it doesn't want to do. You find people have more of a reaction to spit of a loaded question, because I actually can't use roll on deodorants, because that leaves me a little bit irritated. I don't know if I'm like, in a minority of this. I'm not doing any field research. Do you find that? That is common amongst guys or not common at all? In general, armpits can be quite sensitive. It is. It is one of those things that Yeah. Yeah, like curses the word semi occlusive, which certainly you're trapping in the product and it's hot. And you know, there's other things like bacteria going on in there. So yeah, and you love them. So yeah, they can they can be more sensitive, particularly sensitive areas of the body. So yeah, we find that's where we are the sensitive one in the range because we knew that that was a potential problem for people. I don't know whether because his experience was just alien over here. I don't know ever just the experience so shaving armpits makes it worse. But like the like you that isn't rotations I don't know when a more men are shaving our armpits these days, swimmers, friends of mine shave their legs. So well, yeah, there's friction. I've been looking to get into a product that will actually helped me along that road, because I'm also sick of buying aerosols and stuff when I go abroad and you know, travelling and stuff and then having to pay all that we're definitely not wanting to post for you. Well, that's very sweet. But yeah, I'll call our housewarming present. Well, that's it planning on your moving house. I'll be thinking of you guys when I when I will swear. And the products look great, by the way, and proverb skin.com is a place people can have a look and do some shopping themselves. And is it just online? For now? Have you got any plans for bricks and mortar or any boutique? Well, one of the one of the questions you said ever was what suppliers to try to. So having been locked in and having been focused on the online for the last 18 months, we're quite excited that this year is going to be where we get out some physical places. And for us, they're going to be very focused on finding the places where our customers are. And for the large part, that's been people that are, like I said, taking the next step. So thinking about their health, and what they potentially eat, how they exercise, it's all part of the journey. And then actually, well what am I putting on myself? And so the places we're looking at gyms and spas, so looking at the gym as far partners, we've got a treatment. You can see behind me there's a treatment bed curses. In fact, going to Dubai in about two weeks time to launch, and Atlantis, Caesars Palace, some of the room lovely places over there with the treatment protocols. So position almost coming full circle. So our original brand paints where we're taking treatments to places where we link in the gym and spa treatments that you can do in this gym, which links people through to the gala understanding that treatment protocols aren't necessarily just about lying around and relaxing. They're about performance, which is what my experience is a mess I just been is and therefore get a taste and feel for the product therapists and pts. And people are fantastic at educating people. So it's really your chance to have them as ambassadors talking about, like I said, like the ingredients choices, the efficacy, how it fits into a morning routine, a chance for people to see the product physically. And that's yeah, that's what's what we're looking forward to this year. Because I think when you've got a product that is kind of a next level in lots of ways, it's sometimes there's a bit more explaining. So while we might have a tagline and we're passionate about what we do, sometimes if you're new to a brand or a new to a concept, seeing and it's in the flesh, and talking some of that as a real world impact was blast. So we're really excited that about that plan for the rest of the year. And so I say rest of the rest of the decade probably but that's where that's where we're kicking off this year, making a bit of an inroad into those physical spaces that you get a little bit more education little bit more feel for the brand and, and some of the performance that comes along with good therapists and good treatments. Awesome. Well, best of luck and continued success both both to you and Kirsty in the background. Thanks for dropping into nuggets there in the background. And again, Proverbs skin calm, we'll put the links over on the show notes over at menswear style. And oh, I had a rugby question for at least slightly. Before before I let you go look, I have to ask this question. I've always found it curious with rugby versus football or soccer as we Americans would call it, how there seems to be like the fans are always well behaved in rugby grounds, compared what is a contact sport rugby a lot more than football. And it seems like the fans are a lot more just there to see the game and enjoy it. And there's you don't hear about any rocks that happened in car parks, maybe there is but it just doesn't make the column inches in the papers. Yeah, football, you know, it does seem to have a bit more of a tard brush. So I can only I can talk I can talk a lot about this about the on the pitch experience. And I don't know whether this correlates to what goes on off the pitch. But But I recently started playing touch rugby. And you what you very, really, really quickly realise is that in a sport like rugby, that's contact, you never have to leave anything on the pitch. Like, if somebody irritates you, or you know, you get a bad call by the referee or whatever, you can physically go and make an impact you can go and the next time the person that annoys you gets the ball, you can tackle them. Or you can take the ball and run as high as he carries on. And there's a real release of frustration and real sort of ability to physically manipulate the game, which gets a lot of the tension out. And it's really sort of weird thing that goes on where even in training with your own mates, you can like get a fight. And then by the time we walk off pitch and having lunch, you're laughing about it. And that's the same with the opposition. So, you know, like in some of those heated battles and the rugby pitch, there's this respect is built up there's an ability to express it physically, which you know, in my experience is is really good and healthy. And then you come off and 99 times out of 100 You're laughing about it, even if you've lost you kind of physically, you know, you've given your all and my experience to touch rugby which which overlaps to football is where you can't get that physical nature out. You know, it's very, like irritating basically, you know, if somebody like says they've touched you and they haven't, it's a it's a flashpoint but you can't do anything about it. If someone keeps tripping you up as a footballer and keeps like, you know, like niggling you or you can read it as dribble past them. You know, the best you can do is go to school go shouting their face, but like it's just it's a pent up frustration. I really think it's a pent up frustration. And I don't know whether that translates into how the fans experience it when they watch it. But like you're watching them play Scotland on the weekend and yeah, people are gutted the England loss but you just see the physical endeavour that went into it and they're exhausted on the pitch and you can look at the Odysseys now, habit, you can't question that their effort. You can't go, I go, they didn't try enough. There's people coming out bleeding, you know, people are really throwing all into it. Whereas I think probably The frustration in football is they just they can't the pitch and doesn't they haven't had the ability to physically express themselves while they may have run 10 kilometres and played really hard, and I think that's why the England team in the last two or three years have managed in football to like, look like they're giving 100% of the time. And I think fans respond to that if you don't get results, and my only advice to football teams, if you want your fans to play better, and come off, like you've really put in a shift and whether Yeah, whether they see that or not, hopefully, they'll you'll feel better about it as well. But it must be very frustrating if you're now that he gets tripped up every week, you know, to not be able to turn around and do anything right. It was in rugby. You get that outlet in a controlled should I say legal environment. That's a good very good so yeah, I guess also on the pitch. The soccer players, I don't want to call them soccer players, but just for the American audience. Our football players can shout at lines for the shout of referees and kind of have that that's the only way they can it's like why exactly and that probably does translate. That probably does translate into the crowd right? Because they shot the referee. They don't get feminists they then get riled up. But in cricket, you don't. I mean, you can get a warning even if you just look wrong at the referee. I mean, Cricket is great, and then you don't hear about any rocks happening in the carpark of Trent bridge or anyone anyone that can anyone that comes spend 12 hours a day doing the same thing must have more patience. I quit clicker at the age of about 12 When I was like I cannot spend my day standing still. which lends itself to a more relaxed personality. Yes, the crowded there having a beer sitting in the sun generally is slightly different. This is what I'm trying to get my girlfriend to go to a cricket game because it looks boring. Are you kidding me? It's the best I mean, it's almost like going for a picnic but you've just got a couple of things happening in the foreground as well where if you want to ease around take us take it to Q green to some Margaret's church where they do afternoon tea on a Sunday and watch the village cricket There we go. That's my tip for you. So yeah, exactly go get either into how relaxing is and yeah, so actually keeps an eye out for this the six it has always my dream to catch one of those and kind of honestly amazing, amazing clips on YouTube of like club members over the beer and wine and yeah, those are my favourite holding the beer in one hand and kind of not even looking in the book into the farmer. They're for the rest of their life. Absolutely. Luke, really enjoyed talking to you. Again, take care yourself and all the best with the brand for the future and I hope to speak to you soon. Thanks so much for having us. You've been listening to the menswear style podcast be sure to head over to menswear start at CODIT uk for more menswear content and email info at menswear styled at CODIT. UK if you'd like to be a future guest on the show. Finally, please help support the show by leaving a review on iTunes or wherever you're listening to this podcast. Until next time