The Menswear Style Podcast

Dr Tijion Esho, Founder of ESHO.

February 22, 2022 Menswear Style Episode 163
The Menswear Style Podcast
Dr Tijion Esho, Founder of ESHO.
Show Notes Transcript

Dr Tijion Esho is the multi award-winning entrepreneur behind the UK's first black Doctor-owned cosmeceutical brand, ESHO. and an industry leader in the world of aesthetic medicine. At just 38 years old, he has a cult following (celebrities included) at not only his clinics in London, Newcastle and Dubai, but on his digital platforms attracting a vast client base from over 50 countries worldwide. He develops innovative injectable techniques – inspiring his peers to further practise precision for more natural results – and fights for industry progression in bigger ways: lobbying for stricter UK legislation when it comes to safety protocols for cosmetic surgery in the ‘wild west’ world of fillers, launching an initiative to provide free corrective treatment to victims of botched cosmetic procedures, and speaking out about the impact of social media and filters on body dysmorphic disorder (BDD).

In this episode of the MenswearStyle Podcast we interview Dr Tijion Esho, Founder of ESHO. about his background, education, and the founding stories of his businesses. Our host Peter Brooker and Dr Tijion Esho talk about the effects of the Covid-19 global pandemic, designing clinics with a difference, using global influence to inspire creativity, using music to set mood, the recent skincare product line launch, differences between male and female skin, the benefits of cosmetic treatments, and tips on looking after our skin.

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Hello, welcome to another episode of the menswear style podcast. I'm your host Pete Brooker. Today the audio will be a little bit different because I haven't got me microphones and all my studio gear currently packed away in boxes on the way to another house moving house this week. So do bear with me for a week or two while I get set up. In the meantime, I'm going to be talking to Dr. Asher today. Dr. Asha is well is a self made millionaire and he is the CEO and founder of Ashoka group. a collector of multi million companies including a show medical, global medical aesthetics clinics, each with a seven figure turnover eshowe pharma, a new medical cosmeceutical company behind the creation of issue and Asha med sets a premium medical clothing brand for the New Age medical professional. It's a great chat, I really enjoyed this one hope you will too. Here is Dr. Oz show to talk about himself and the brand, in his own words. So as I said, I'm Dr. Oz Show. I'm president of cosmetic doctor on BBC morning live. Also show on Netflix, Netflix body fixes. I'm also founder and CEO of Su MD clinics, which are non surgical clinics across the country, Newcastle, London and Dubai. And then also founder and CEO of issue skincare, which is a targeted skincare range are now available on QVC. And through eating. Okay, and so, where are you spending most of your time? Newcastle to buy? Yeah. I think I think this is also the question. It varies, it does change. I think when you have something like I always call it almost a portfolio career where you're doing different bits of stuff. It you could be anywhere you know, I think predominant time is in UK and in London I would say but at different times of the year that will switch you know across the by all Newcastle and particularly depending on where I'm filming a lot of production companies now BBC has just moved to Manchester to before I will be filming, you know fortnightly or monthly segments here. But now they're in Manchester. So you know, we're everywhere around the place. I'm going I've got an amazing EA who kind of sorts out the rest of my life. So we're about the you live are you? Are you London base? Yeah, so I North London boy born grew up in Edmonton is pretty rough area. But you know, it taught me a lot. But then I you know, when I kind of progress and graduated from med school, I moved to central London, London Bridge. Love that area. Did everything, you know, the bars, piling and everything else. And then when it was time to grow up, and you know, my missus had to decide to have a baby. We first picked Wimbledon. And that's why one of our sites is in Wimbledon village. Because, you know, we thought it was a great place as many parents do for schools getting into the city and not but insensitive. Actually, we just a year ago moved to cobban. Sorry. It was an area we were looking at. Again, much more space still see, but in kind of not to see a lot of green areas, low good schools. And yeah, we were really fortunate to be able to find them before the place they're in. Yeah, I think that's all kind of UK home home now. I would only say now the homes abroad, but that's how UK Home. Right? Yeah, Wimbledon. You've opened up a new clinic there. Is that right? Is that the most just before the pandemic hit, you know, great. Now, we those that won on December 1 2019. And I think everything kicked off with COVID about January time, because points seem to change. And you know, us talking about it in December. And then people started to realise really what we were dealing with started in January. So, you know, the clinic was closed for a number of that time. You know, even though we had established clinics already, it was hard for the investment, you know, with our clinics, which you see them we invest a lot for a particular look, we like them to be boutique key high end, but not feel like you're in a doctor's office because a lot of people have that apprehension when they come in and just see those white walls, white desk and everything else. You know, ours is very polished pastor, you know, works, you know, that type design. So you probably think you're buying a high end watch or bag, not coming in for some facial clinical treatments, but works very well for us. And yeah, penname was hard. But you know, we're very lucky that we had an established network of things of how we do because of our Dubai clinic. We will already use the treating clients virtually having a virtual self system reviewing and doing things like that. So really, we took that methodology, and straight away established that into our UK practice. So from skin consultations online reviewing those photos, everything else we were able to merge a lot of our business to that side to kind of still continue. Yeah. I know. I don't really no London that well, being out here in West London is like the perfect place if you're a dog walker, if you're a keen Waitrose shopper, but you're only like 20 minutes on the District line, and then your heart. So you kind of have, you know, depending on your, your bracket, you almost have like the townhouse and the fee. This is it. And I think a lot of people have done that. Now, interestingly enough, you know, I've seen it happening with my friends, a lot of people in the pandemic, you know, the great move, or the Exodus. And I think what it did you know, for the older bands and hardships, it did bring, you know, we had our son who ended up on a ventilator for you know, two months, not two months, so two weeks, and he was 15 months old. So, you know, we went through with like, a lot of people, but the one of the good aspects I think it did was it got people to reflect on what they really wanted out of the life, not just work wise, but wellness, everything. And you know, I think a lot of people, you know what, I'm sitting here, in this flat in this central area, no greenery, and actually for the same money, I could get that outside and have space and have these walks and do this and have a better work life balance. And I think, you know, that's, that's the positive I've seen in some cases, too. And you touched on the look of your clinics, just tell me a bit more about because I've not had the chance or the opportunity to get in one. Yeah. But yeah, I have reviewed other clinics in central London. And you're right, having that kind of walk in feel where it doesn't feel like you've got that kind of dentist from the 80s field. But then on the flip side, I've been into clinics before where I've gone up about 10 flights of stairs into someone's attic, and you get prescriptions handed over and you say can I have that written down? And they go, No, you can't look kind of things that you think well, this is just code. But then also in these clinics I went to and this might be an interest, interest you. The consultation was good, the the gentleman the doctor was very informative and nice. And then he goes right, go into the studio over there, make stuff come to us and brilliant. He then comes back in 10 minutes later, absolutely stinking awesome of cigarettes. And this is like a you a clinic or a wellness clinic. And then I'm now going to get like sorted inspecting me and I've just got this aroma of you know, lucky in the room. And I'm thinking everything that he said has now got kind of shallow, empty vacuous things. Yeah. How do you kind of treat the physical aspect of your clinics, like who comes and helps you design those? Um, so a lot me, you know, it's interesting enough from down to my products, everything if I wasn't a doctor, I think I'd be a creative because that's how my mind is, you know, even our renovation teamLab Do you really need us because, you know, I'm picking materials and picking tones. I sit there my mind so active. So when I was deciding what clinic I wanted, I always actually look for inspiration outside of the medical industry. So I look a lot at fashion and everything else. And also places we've been so where Dubai so you can tell by clinic how I've been affected in bit. So when you go into fragrance, Dubai really affects me in terms of food, I fell in love with food in Dubai, I love it as a fragrance I wear myself all the time now, fractured mouth, Portrait of a Lady. And so in clinic, that's what you smell, since you come in, it's you, you know, you smell like that food is pumped through the system. It's a nice aroma, not cigarettes. And also the staff, you know, they do that as a, you know, when we talk about that patient journey when they have you know, the purpose of doing the treatment, they have that smell for the patients to smell and they will smell that oil. And they will get that sense through them. So they get that in terms of a scent point of view, from a kind of music, we've got our own playlists. So if you're on Spotify, you see the issue of playlists is what plays through all our clinics, and it's very of a soulful, kind of even what you would find in a kind of cool jazz but also at the same time and the coupon I beat for those slow jams that type of vibe and you know so many people sitting in Shazam in sometimes a guide, you know, honestly amazed at that track. I'm like, yeah, just pull up the playlist, you know, so it's very important for me that sensorial journey through all of those bits and then when it comes into looking, you know, around the thing to see behind me, you know, Polish plaster bits in there, it's that kind of more. I kind of got affected when I go stay anywhere bored when I'm travelling, like industrial tones, you know, it's like bronze is, you know, cement, you know, those type of bits there and I think Though that kind of look cool and still clinical, but they're not too much of that old dentist office in the end, so yeah, yeah, it's getting that sweet spot between Yeah. Knowing that you've walked into a place where people know their onions and not walking into somewhere that just feels like it's overkill, if that makes sense. Yes, yes. Doctor actually talking to me about some of the lines that you had the new feel unique and QVC line that's just been launched. So perhaps talk about some of those. And yeah, so it's always been a vision of mine. I think sometimes, when people do I do, it kind of made me seem successful, it seems like the next step to do product line, I think, particularly during this pandemic, we sort of very celebrity, or everybody else, everybody was coming out of a skincare line. But for me, actually, from the beginning of the start of the inception of me wanting to launch my own clinics, I always had this vision that as my own clinics, I will be using my own products or my patients, I'll be sending my own products to consumers, and also using my own devices, and thinking that way, I will be able to control the end result even better for them. So that was a big important thing to me. And so one thing I was known for quite a bit, and still is, is lips, you know, a lot of people call me the lip doctor by nickname because that's something you know, I was really, really well known for. And so it made sense, if I was making the first kind of foray into skincare, to focus on that area. I like kind of, when I looked at things I didn't like people trying to be a jack of all trades at once. You know, I think we brand loyalty as a brand. If you zoom in on a niche or something and you get really blindly trust you, then you can breed loyalty to expand that area. So that's why I really wanted to go into and also because I want you to look at everywhere. There wasn't really much disruption, when you looked at lip care was always this kind of one size fits all, you know, you've got Vaseline, and there wasn't really much else, you know, you know, you had a few other brands, but no one was really doing lip care like skincare. And I remember thinking that simple concept when I went, your lips have free layers spin, they don't have its own sebaceous glands, it's more valuable than the skin, we have routines for whole skin regime, my hair, nothing for our lips. So why can't I create skincare for lips, you know, targeted line that will treat different aspects of problems with lips that will be allowed to work in synergy together and build your own routine. And it was such a simple idea. But caught on like fire. And you know, we very quickly we launched on QVC made last year very quickly became the fastest and live product line of all time. You know, and QVC This is against legacy brands, you know, like Elizabeth Arden and everything else, you know, we went we went on to food unique sold out there in total, I think we've been like eight months had eight sellouts won five awards. So you know, we've been in a way where it's just kind of grind away. But then at the same time, he knew we were onto something when we sat down and thought about it too. So it's come as a surprise so quickly. But also I'm glad I'm realising why potentially think it could be an exciting new stages to come. Managing. Yeah, it's quite funny lips, because I don't think people put as much emphasis on how their lips look compared to other parts of their face, right. So I don't want to put words in your mouth, I imagine a lot of people would come to you for maybe like crow's feet or black circles, or kind of a lot of things to do with the eyes might be at the top of the agenda when it comes to maybe having treatments done. Yeah, if you notice someone that does have bad lips, you can't really take your eyes off of when you're talking to him. His lips are like front and centre almost because that's where like this study, the studies that show you know, when we look at kind of when we observe people to pick pinkeye to successfully nose eyes. The next thing we notice are the lips. So you know when you're looking at kind of where the eye gathers, it gathers in this triangle, this inverted triangle, and it's flickering between those two areas. So you have people come in all different areas, but the focus is really there, as you said, particularly for men, you know, I think men particularly that area definitely is after four, where it can be the most damaged area in in men, because it's so delicate. And then if you're not doing the skin routine, and you're not even do the liquidity in that area is going to be more vulnerable than your own skin. And, you know, bring me back because I think I said a joke tweet. Not long ago about men's lips. I see men please, you know, use lip balm. It's not just for women, women don't want to be exfoliated when they kiss you they want to just kiss you. And it went viral. Like 20,000 likes and because so many women was like, Oh my God, yes. You know, and other guys were like, he's kind of like, you know, so it's one of those things where again, it's the unspoken bits and I love having a conversation that we're right now so we can say and go Why don't we do this you know? Look at male grooming awards. So many times it's not lip category when women don't have lips now, like, you know, where you would see it in a female category and would see it there. So it's interesting that and do guys have different lips than women? Because I know this guy's skins are harder, you know, and you know, we have different treatments and creams, obviously for guys and women. But so how is it different between the girls? And the guys like, yeah, so you know, I think there's less difference between men and women than there is between ethnic groups. You know, in terms of ethnic groups, you know, and being black, we tend to have larger lips. And because of that, and a larger surface area, we tend to lose moisture more, because there's trans epidermal water loss between the atmosphere from using water to the lips. Remember, we don't have sebaceous glands in our liquids produce oil, so we're more vulnerable to getting them dry. So it's not that we need different products, we probably need more of, you know, more hydrating products of the year to help protect with men, typically dependent it's more about lifestyle. So environment where a more more than genetic differences. So men is typically they listen to be more exposed, particularly do an outside jobs, recurring jobs, farming everything else, which women still do. But if it's a predominantly male dominated environment, those areas again, are more likely to have damage. And then you think also, again, women are less likely to use lipstick in those areas as well. A lot of products that have lipstick, a hydrangea and men aren't a lot of men aren't doing that. So if you're not hydrated via makeup, you're not hydrated via you know, skincare products, and then you're working outside these conditions, really is a sitting duck for air to become dry cracks and damage. Yeah, yeah, I've spent like a good portion of my adult life on construction sites. And I can tell you that the amount of guys that aren't going out there and having chats about their skincare whilst they're laying brick or you know, putting up scaffolding, well, this is I guess this is going back for me about 510 years. But does that has that attitude kind of morph? Have you seen a different attitude between guys that are now paying a lot more attention to what they need to do with their skin in your life? No, you definitely. You know, I think you're exactly right. Go back 10 Probably even 20 years ago, you know, that was very much the predominant thing. You know, it was meant to meant to be men don't talk. I mean, when my dad actually walked to the bathroom saw me moisturising for the first time and him being kind of stoic Africa mountains. You do it? And moisturiser, you know, like and he was like, disturbed by it, you know? And I was just like, you know, men don't do that. And it's such a crazy thing to have, you know, Windows take care of the skin. Why not? You know, but I think the attitude has changed. And I think particularly social media, but also as well, because of the influences we see in society. You know, where it was these kind of rugged madman outside as you said, we look into my now the kind of next set are the metrosexual male, where he does groom, you know, he doesn't really show you David Beckham's, you know, things like that, and it makes it more acceptable. I also think the way products are marketed towards men are better, you know, back then, it was stupid, you know, you had to hyper masculine life something for a guy to like it, you know, skincare coated grenade, you know, or, you know, face balm, you know, like, No, we just won't know, you know, yeah, and most of the times guys don't go in there to buy grenade like skincare. They're taking what the missus uses is in that cabinet cabinet. So this now more gender neutral skincare we're seeing, you know, I think is more appealing, and also where we place it. So you know, I'm a sneaker head, I love trainers. But even I've seen that change, you know, most places where you bought trainers when animal trainers, now you buy trainers agreement section next to it, you know, there'll be things like gels and shaving gels and all of these things. So they realise in the male patient is changing, even my set is increased. So they will be counted about 10% of my clinic about 10 years ago now men count about 20%. So that still rising, needs more work to be done. And I think men need to be allowed to have that conversation more. I think, in my clinic, we see that the partners may give them permission to have that conversation. So they tend to come in with the missus and then to say, ask him, and it will no, no, ask him going, Oh, Doc, you know this here, you know, could you do something about that? And then it's an open conversation so that the partner becomes the icebreaker. And you get past that, that it's not needed an icebreaker and we can have that conversation directly. I think it was the more moment interested ingredient and taking care of ourselves. Yeah, it is a strange thing. I've had this with my girlfriend where I almost felt like I need her permission before I even approach that subject where I'd say like, you know, my eyes I don't you know, I'm in my early 40s They're not that bad, knowing that they're pretty bad. And she'll go, we'll give you a few more years and then we'll Get you back in front of the doctor. But you kind of need that like that licence to go in and have that debate or if you're going to have that work, because guys, ultimately, this is me speaking, but guys don't really care that much if they've got a partner because they're, they cash themselves in the mirror every now and again. But then on the ones that have to look at themselves night and day where I think humans are a lot more and always have been conscious of their looks and how they are perceived. Freeletics. But we've, yeah, we've guys, I think it's also like you say about the social media, a lot of it has come down to what I believe is just narcissism, and how roads lead to narcissism where you'd be taking a lot more pictures you face your online dating now you need to have the need to have the boat race, the grill, the cash register looking like crime, and, and then they just that's opened up, I'm guessing so many different avenues and yeah, you guys spectrums of that, you know, I think you see it for people that Jenny just want to do for themselves. You see it because it's predominantly what they look like, for everyone else, you know, this kind of Insell society, people are guys, you know, in so you've got so many different extremes. But I think yeah, is about kind of allowing that conversation because even in my own group of mates, that know what I do, you know, I've been there my kitchen and my main kind of look at me, and then kind of whispered to mean, did you use on your skin but lo and I'm like, why are we whispering? Like, no one else? I like them still magic they made for like, decades, and having that uncomfortable to say to me, You know what skincare using, you know, and he's a normal guy is not like, you know, vain or whatever. But he's probably looked to me for I mean, faster than he is right now. You know, maybe I can ask him but I don't know how to ask. So it's interesting. Yeah, this is a new bomb. It's called ak 57. Bomb. And bomb will come out and you can apply. Then the guys like Oh, cool. Cool. Yeah, I'm on board now. Yeah. Okay. So, I mean, we've talked about the demographic, your main audience, could you touch upon some of the benefits of these treatments like the Botox and the fillers and and like, what what are people actually asking you more these days, more clients. So I think the key thing what I do so you know, kind of I was summarising, I'm a non surgical experts, I do everything before the knife to kind of promote ageing and healthy skin. And when I look at that, you know, these are always wants or needs. You know, I always keep saying from when I was in IQ test and why now I'm in private practice. Danna was saving lives. Now I'm changing lives, and that's different. So these things aren't crucial to you, you know, and that's really important to understand. Because you could go on in your life and be completely fine in women. But if you fought back correctly, and you're okay, I'm doing it for the right reasons, which is important for consultation, then you can transform that in terms of confidence and how you feel about particular things. And I think that's a big disparity between the public sometimes thinking about people getting these because these Soon, everyone getting about them is insecure. And they've got terrible mental health issues and why they mess it around themselves, when all of us change ourselves in some ways. You know, we if we weren't, you know, when we're born, and we stayed the same, we all run around barefoot naked, you know, Harry, we all change and alter ourselves, whether it's something simplistic a haircut, style to do, we are all changing something. And I guess it depends to people where that line comes, you know, for me, in my tree was the biggest thing that people now asked me for. And I think that's changed over the last five years now skin, there's a huge focus on how the quality of the skin looks, you know, before it was more about injectables, Botox, fillers, Botox, muscle relaxers to treat fine and wrinkles, fillers to enhance areas or replaced volume last. But now particularly since the pandemic as well, I think we've seen his cattle focus in terms of skin and the quality of the skin and things that can be done to improve that. And I think that's because of how we see our own wellness. I think after the pandemic, we've been hyper focused on wellness more than we had before. And part of how we see wellness is how we look not just how we feel to and part of how we look, you know, the biggest organ in ourselves is our skin. You know, looking after that and making sure that looks healthy. Yeah. And so kind of like, Are there any recipes and things that we can do on our own? I know you've got a great range and people come in and see you. But for those that just want to have like the day to day like we mentioned always stay hydrated minimum to two litres of water you'd probably say would be Then what other things could you do to maybe re Energise your eyes? And re energise? Oh, really so you know what it's interesting. So people don't realise when people come into my office and I tend to see half the things you can do a free, you can do them yourself. But it's the ability to commit and do them, you know, and we are the worst as humans for that is that you'll see a GP and you've got a knackered, I need something to, you know, to, you know, give me energy and I go, Okay, what's your schedule, and you realise you're working 24 hours a day, okay, that's the problem, you don't need a pill. So it's these lifestyle adjustments that are free, that can have a massive impact. So we talked about drinking water, water, you know, you can do that it involves have those bottles placed around, so you can make sure you're prepped and happiness that has a massive impact on how you feel in yourself, keeping yourself hydrated, not just the skin itself, and having at least two to three litres a day is really important, you know, that helps around the skin, the eyes everywhere, and sleep. None of us again, enough, you know, we always look at and we kind of go, particularly when I have a lot of patients for this brand. I take about a history and again, three, four hours of sleep a night. And they say Well, that's a huge focus. And the reason why, you know so by Justin sleep and having good sleep hygiene habits, he there's many apps there that can help with the circadian rhythm and improve your sleep, like the calm app, and many more, these are things that can help once you get in a better quality of sleep, therefore have a bigger effect, not just how you feel but how you look. SPF, I always say this to people, when I talk about skincare, the one thing that people can have against any skincare range, even monitor is SPF, it's cheap, it's affordable, it's everywhere. And it lasts for ages and applying SPF everyday, not just in the summertime, everyday minimum 30 really can help from anti ageing point of view, and not just anti ageing point of view, but also as well reducing your chances of skin cancer, which is very important too. And then I think the final ones are exercise and diet. You know, I know mine slacked these last months, you know, and now I feel better by getting back into regime, just by looking at what you're eating regular meals, you know, not processed meals, you know, and and also looking at then also exercise at least three times a week. These again, your skin is an organ, you know, it transfers pains, it takes nutrients from the blood, you know, it can actually be outside, the more healthy your body is, the more healthy it's going to look. So by doing those simple things to yourself outside, even going even taking a step and buying a skin regime, you can dramatically change you know, your skin and how we look. Yeah, yeah, the the SPF was something that I clocked on to going back to my construction days. And I remember on a lunch break going into the canteen and applying some cream that had the SPF in it, and getting ridiculed by my mates saying, look, it's not even sunny out, you know, you know, check out this guy, la dee da with his new SPF cream. I was like, guys, we're gonna be outside, in like for about 10 hours. I mean, it's not sunny, but you still have UV light. And that's just doing nothing but attacking your skin. It's just endless, isn't it? So we're learning more and more about light. You know, I think you've probably heard a lot about blue light the screens now. And you know how that ageing is, you know, and people go, Oh, God, you know, what can I do that. And it's just being aware of your exposure to the environment around you, whether that's outside, like you said, for prolonged periods of time, or in front of this green for a prolonged period of time. All of these different ways. Whether it's blue light will be have, you know, with the screens, or UVA and UVB rays out prolonged exposure can increase photo ageing and damaging skin. So just making sure you're protected and also reducing that time where necessary to tell you who's going to have great skin this year. Just off the top of my head is there, Kanye West, because he is now going everywhere covered up in this kind of like all over mask, so he's not getting hit by a blue light, UV light, no light, he's just gonna come out looking 10 years younger and I'm worried about his Bittman D and worried about his beard. Oh, yeah. Maybe Maybe it's one of them. masks that kind of inject a little bit. Yeah, he's, he's gonna be looking pretty, pretty tasty when he gets up. I digress. Dr. Su, are you available for virtual consults as well for the people that can't physically get to? Yeah. Yeah. So we always were, but it's something that became increasingly popularity since the pandemic. And you know, we have a global clientele base of over 50 different countries. So, for people regularly across the world, we are doing virtual consultations. But now, obviously, people within UK more do it from travelling, whether it's from a fervour pace in the UK itself will try to reduce their movement down, you know, people's lives have changed people working from home to have the convenience like we're speaking now, you know, where we would have maybe done a meeting elsewhere. in a room together to do this, it makes it much easier for people and people sometimes do worry about oh, a virtual console might not be the same, you know, I might be getting less, but actually no, you know, we usually get people to send preset standardised photos, which is an easy way to do beforehand and also have the conversation directly. And then when they come in with the provision equal treatment, we still read discuss those in person. So if it's someone that is low for time, or you know, far away a Virtual Console is the perfect choice for them and it will get lots of value. Awesome, and people can find more information over on the website, so clinic.co.uk and we'll leave all the links over on the show notes on menswear style. Dakota, UK. Dr. Su thanks so much for your time. Great. Thank you for having me, and hopefully catch you down in Wimbledon next time I'm there. Yeah, definitely has to be. You've been listening to the menswear style podcast be sure to head over to menswear startup CODIT. uk for more menswear content and email info at menswear startup code at UK if you'd like to be a future guest on the show. Finally, please help support the show by leaving a review on iTunes or wherever you're listening to this podcast. Until next time