SPEAKER_01 0:12

Hello, welcome back to another episode of the Mentor Style Podcast. I'm your host, Pete Booker. Today on the show I am talking to the founder of Test in First. Test in Hair. First of all, Test in Hair based now in his hometown of Edinburgh, Scotland. The brand was created to redefine modern Scottish design by blending innovation with tradition. They weave in references from their heritage and homeland, combining integral details with other areas of inspiration, including vintage, workwear, military sports, and outdoor and now. To talk about the brand in his own words is the founder, creative director, Kestin Hare.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Well, I am Keston Hare, which gets really confusing, and the brand's called Keston. So I'm I'm the person Keston Hare and I'm the creative director, founder, founder of a brand called Keston, which is which is handy, you know. Yeah, I've been and uh I've got uh a menswear brand um based in Edinburgh. Um and uh we've been going since 2014 uh now. So uh and we make um really good quality um menswear uh that is built to last uh that um is inspired by lots of different things, um which I suppose we'll probably get into um as we as we go along.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Yeah, please. I mean we were just talking off mic how you spent around seven years in London. Was that before you moved up to Edinburgh? And what was it that you learned in London towards the brand?

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Um I think you know, we were we were just discussing just now, you know, we when you first when I first started out, um after and I and I studied in um Northumbria and and in Newcastle, um, where I left Edinburgh to go and do um fashion design and marketing. And um one of the there was like a year placement where I went down to London and and worked uh down there because it was always seen uh at that time that you had to go and work down in London and and cut your teeth down there. And if you ever wanted to to start a brand, that was that was the place to to to do it. Um so uh I went down to London uh for my year placement, but then I ended up going back um and working down there afterwards. Um I was in London probably for about seven years on and off, um, working for different people. And uh and I love London, I still love London now, it's almost like a second home, but um you know, home home is is Edinburgh, and and um we came back um when my daughter was born. Um, so we've been back now for almost 13 years, I think, in in Edinburgh, and initially had to kind of spend a lot of time kind of going between the two, kind of commuting up and down. And I was freelancing for a few um different brands to try and and then try to start my own brand at the same time. So it was it was kind of trying to get money in um to live and and and and it's that kind of balance, I suppose, but everybody goes on the on their own as that kind of you know, you need sort of three days a week doing consultancy design work to then pluck up enough courage to you know jump into to fully doing your own brand and and you know getting it to a point where you can financially do that as well.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

Um so yeah, the leap of faith, as it were.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

Yeah, the leap of faith into it. So, you know, and and and it was a you know, it was a long, it was a long time ago now, or it feels a long time ago. Uh, and things things were very different back then, you know. It wasn't you know, there wasn't just the the uh the kind of technology that that we have now where brands can start out and and suddenly they can be on Instagram selling or shop, you know, can get a Shopify account, you know. It it was you know, back then it was it was very different. It was um, you know, you you became almost like a wholesale brand by default because you you didn't have your own store at that point. And you know, I was making I was making jackets in the east end of London and you had to make 50 of them, and you weren't gonna sell, you know, 50 of them yourself, so you had to sell them to somebody else, so you you had to go to a trade show, and you then um you know, I was I was lucky enough to to to get a few good stores, you know, that that picked up with the brand and you sold to them, and then you knew somebody that knew somebody that could maybe build your website, you know, it was like revolutionary, you know, something that really, you know, oh I know somebody that that knows somebody that could maybe build your website and you could maybe start trading, you know, off it. And so I think there was a cut, you know, a combination of of um you know wholesale and and then eventually you know we we got our own store and and then we're a small store where we were designing at the back of it and trading at the front of it, and you were the the Saturday boy and and the designer and the you know and and everything, you know.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

So and so who who was the team like back then? I know obviously you're you're sound like very much a one-man band trying to get it all off the ground yourself, but what's the what were the pillars around you?

SPEAKER_00 5:31

Uh I think you know that there's um there's a guy called Tom Cuddy, uh, who who still works for me actually, he was one of the sort of founding members back then who sort of came as uh a graduate on placement um from um uh Harriet Watt University Edinburgh, kind of um Edinburgh's sort of uh textile um uh course. And um he came to me and sort of worked, helped work and you know, working in the shop, and then you know, and he's still with me now. So, you know, there was like two or you know, three of us who was sort of you know, production manager, I think, was the sort of kind of first sort of person you sort of brought in and and and tom and myself. And there's there's like three, there was like three of us, you know, uh, you know, starting to to really um start designing and and um and producing very locally at that point, you know, because um it was cheaper to manufacture in the UK and you could do small quantities. And you know, that that's what I'd been brought up on. And as a designer, you're always molded by all of your past experiences. So, you know, my time at um uh K Born, you know, was very much you know about UK manufacturing, and and that's you know what what I came out um you know, because that was sort of the the main role, I suppose, um, you know, as head of design there before um before starting my own brand. And and you know, I I think that kind of gave me the courage to to start my own brand because I I kind of felt like um you were, you know, you were it was a small team and you I was doing a lot uh doing a lot at that at that point. So you kind of had the confidence then to kind of go, right, maybe I could do this myself.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

Yeah. And I think we touched upon it when you're in Edinburgh. Do you feel like uh uh launching a brand there that you're kind of closer to the authenticity, like you're closer to the mills, you're closer to you know the the heritage of where most of the fabrics come from, as opposed to say if you're in London starting a brand, there are a lot of London brands that seem to hijack the name London and kind of tack it onto the end of everything. And then when you get to the fine print, you realize oh, it was everything was just made in Portugal anyway. That doesn't stop them from putting a picture of Big Ben on the front. And by the way, I'm including HP sauce in that. Makes in the Netherlands, not even in London, but I digress.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Right, I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

I'll go, well yeah, look it up, it's on the back of the line.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

I can't have a ban on brown sauce. Unfortunately, that's not that's not gonna I mean that I'll I'll uh there'll be there'll be there'll be some issues, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I'll hear brown sauce is uh you know, is everything.

SPEAKER_01 8:15

Um it's everything to me as well in this household, I think.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

Um I think uh you know, um Edinburgh's and Edinburgh and Scotland is a is a fantastic, fantastic city and country to to be in. And you know, uh as we said, you know, like uh when you first started out, it was always you know, you had to be down in London surrounded by you know what was going on in London. And I do I do believe that that definitely helped me, you know, in the early stages and and um working for the people that I work for and getting experience, you know, it's all experience, experience, experience. And I I did leave a little bit earlier and tried to sort of start doing things and it didn't it didn't quite work out at that point. I didn't really have you need to have the connections and I think and the experience to to to then come back and and try and make a go of it and you know have the you know have the experience or had the experience of working with all these different people to to be able to understand really how it works and and to to make it a success, I suppose. Um and yeah, it does, you know, it does it does um frustrate me all of that, you know, where where you know people are trying to pull the wool over over people's eyes. You know, we're we're you know, we're very lucky there's not many other Scottish menswear brands. Um and that kind of gives us a bit of a unique um place to be. Um and I'm always I've always been drawn by, you know, inspired by my memories of growing up in Scotland or you know, and and even now the pla you know the places that you go on holiday in Scotland or or the traditions or the the history of of you know what's happened in Scotland, not just in in textiles, but in all different types of you know culture and and art and design and architecture and and all those kind of things. Um, you know, I I definitely think it gives you, you know, a bit of of depth and and you know, and and um a story to tell as well. You know, it's I think maybe it's sometimes a little bit difficult to tell a tell a story when there's lots of other people telling a story. So it, you know, the same story. So, you know, when we're uh telling a different story, it's it's easier um for us, uh I suppose.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

Um yeah, I think uh I so as speaking as a consumer and somebody's uh that's worked uh in their own uh menswear shop selling selling other people's clothes, it always helps that the brand has a has a really good narrative. But but it comes from a place of honesty, like there's a fru line where you don't have to confuse people where they'll see something and go, oh, I get it instantly. And there's there's no conflation here of like why why is it saying this? And then I go on the website and it looks completely different as to so uh I think that helps. And I'll just give you a a quick story. When I was working in a shop, there was a a t-shirt company, there was a a founder who'd lost his brother, I think, to some kind of uh a BC. So basically he just could you know he just got too big and and and died of something. But on the shirt, it would always say my armchair killed my brother Neil, and you could lift up the t-shirt and there would be like a little biography like written inside the t-shirt. Oh, yeah. And it would just be like something that you know you would tell someone, you'd they'd go, Well, I don't know what that stands for. They look at the anagram, and then you can give them like a little something for them to pass on and tell someone else. So I think that the importance of a story, especially with a uh with a brand, is it just can't be underestimated, I think.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

No, I I I agree. I mean, it's um you know, we're we're a Scottish brand, we don't claim to make everything in Scotland or in the UK. You know, the we we do make a lot of products in Scotland and we do make a lot of products in the in the UK generally, you know, a lot of um of our productions in Portugal and in the Far East, um, you know, for the more technical and downfilled product that that it's just impossible to make um in Europe at you know a certain price and a certain quality and and all of those kind of um things. But yeah, the narrat the narrative is really important and difficult to tell you know that story, uh, you know, particularly when you're you you know we were uh sort of 70% wholesale, 30% sort of direct brands. And and when your products in you know somebody else's store, you know, you're relying on good sales guys to tell that that story. Um, so that was difficult in the early days. Um, you know, it's become much easier now with social media and Instagram and TikTok and all those kind of things, you know, where where if you um can tell the story uh and and you know you can align all of those things. I mean, we we've just launched um our outdoor garments um capsule collection um for the first time. Uh and we're not an outdoor brand, you know, we're we're definitely a traditional menswear brand, but we we are able to play in in that space because you know we're we're constantly you know getting people coming to Edinburgh that are about to go up north or you know go go up a mountain or do a Monroe or or go traveling up the the you know the West you know the the highlands or the the Hebrides or or wherever they come. So generally they're coming to Edinburgh as as a you know a first um point of call um before they go on to that. Um and I've always been interested in um sort of technical fabrics and performance and all that sort of stuff, but that's become more and more uh interesting to me as I've gone on. Um, you know, and and I think it's a space that we want to play more and more in in the future. And we've seen the success of of um you know the the outdoor garments um collection that we've we've just launched. Um just uh sort of small capsule collections of you know, two two fleece styles, a three-layer um tape scene jacket, which is waterproof, and uh and a downfill um jacket as well. Um yeah, I'm looking at one now.

SPEAKER_01 14:17

Sorry to sorry to talk over you. I'm looking at one now on the Instagram, which is uh kestin.co by the way. We'll leave all the links on the show notes. It's a it looks like a an orange quilted, but kind of uh almost a honeycomb quilted.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

Yeah, so it's onion onion quilted um uh puffer jacket. Um and I think you know, it was it's really that, you know, telling that story, I think, is really important. And you know, I think you know, the you know, I'm lucky enough that my my wife, um Jem, who's the my partner and and the business and and partner in life and everything, she's come from a marketing background, you know, and I and I think once you get the two together, where you get great, you know, marketing and hopefully okay design, you know, and you put you put the two together, you can really create something, you know, really special. And and you know, it's very much about you know, right product, right time, telling the right story, you know, in an authentic, you know, authentic way, you know, all of those things. Once, you know, that that's the sweet spot, I suppose, is when you get all those kind of things coming together. Yeah. Um, and and that's been you know incredibly successful. Um, and it and it's pushing me as a designer, you know, because you know, I I've always been very inspired by kind of um workware or military or or second, you know, second world war, and an avid collector of vintage clothing and a big vintage archive. And that's definitely come from Keborn and my mum as well, who is a collector of um of vintage. Um, you know, and uh and I suppose uh you know, seeing uh and getting into collecting, you know, particularly I suppose Eddie Barrer, old Eddie Barrer stuff, um, you know, you can probably see that kind of influence coming through and into some of our you know products. Um so yeah, it's uh you know, I think it's if you get it all together at the right time, it's it's you know, you get it's a winning formula.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

I mean it looks great. I'm I'm also interested your uh your name's Kestin here, the brand's called Kestin. Yeah, how much uh front of house are you looking to be now, especially like on the social media front? I'm seeing um I'm not seeing many images of you, is what I'm saying, but there must have been a point at the start of the brand where you had to propel everything, so you must have had to be in front and center. Have you kind of dialed it back a little bit since?

SPEAKER_00 16:43

Uh well what it came through. Um, we had a uh a Japanese partner, uh and I'd worked quite a lot in Japan with my time with with Nigel and and um Margaret Howe, and and um we always had Japanese um partners within the business, so I was quite used to sort of working with the Japanese partners, and then um, so when we teamed up with the Japanese, they said, Well, we think you know the brand should be called Keston Hair. And I was I I thought that was a terrible idea. Thought it was um, you know, it's like why why would you want to? It sounded kind of like you know, a little bit old fashioned for me at the time. It was sort of like and I wasn't, you know, it wasn't like a designer designer, it wasn't like you know, Paul Smith or, you know, like you know, that that kind of um thing. And and brands were normally kind of, you know, one word or you know, that that, you know, it or they were called something that that didn't really mean anything but kind of associated with workware or you know, something like that. You know, it's um so the idea of calling casting hair was what initially took a lot of a lot of getting used to, and um, but it was the Japanese wanted to do it because of my um past uh with working with Naraj Cable and being had a design there, and and um that was the idea with it. And then eventually we shortened it to cast in, which is what everybody sort of knew the brand as, which um which is kind of easier, it's easier to brand, it's you know, it's not as long, it's you know, it's easier to say, it's easier to create a brand, and and and the easy and the good thing is no, you know, it's easy to get a domain because nobody wants nobody wants the domain, or nobody, you know. Um, so in some ways it's really lucky. I mean, growing up with the name in uh in Scotland, uh a school, you know, you got Kirsty, Kestrel, nobody could say Kestin, it was right, it was like uh a Norwegian name that my mum sort of tweaked. I think it was Kest T O N, and then she changed it to IN, and and that was that was it. Uh she's got a she should be um you know taking some sort of um commission or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Way ahead in the SEO charts, you know. Yeah, just she's just thinking like Gwen if Poutrow and uh Beckham's calling their kids, you know, things that will stand out a bit more in the future. I love it. Um well you mentioned Japan now. We so you have a license over in Japan under Kestin? Are you kind of in the hands?

SPEAKER_00 19:08

So we we designed and and produced, and we and we still do uh design and produce our collection, which is sold to Japanese um stores um over there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

Do you get a chance to go out there much now?

SPEAKER_00 19:21

Um I went out. I used to go there a lot before uh before COVID, and and um I've not been out there since I'm trying to plan to go out there next year. Um but I've not I've not been out there for a while, actually. But I I mean I I I grew up, you know, with working with Japanese. I mean, I met Sam Sigore, um uh who you know was was Margaret's partner and and um Nigel's partner when I was in my early 20s, you know, and and Kai who I worked with now, who's now at Snow Peak, and and you know, that the so we we've kind of I've got a kind of long-standing relationship with um with working with with Japanese and and and and I suppose our our style and our aesthetic um lends itself well and does well, you know, in the in the Japanese market.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Yeah, yeah, it's um it's a fascinating place. I've I've just uh did a cruise out there just recently and so so managed to go all the way around Japan, but uh also um I've been speaking to a friend who um uh I've co-written his book for, and he's got a license out there, and he speaks really fondly of the time when he had uh you know a lot of concessions out there in in Japan and how it at times I mean he's too modest to say this that you feel like a rock and roll star when you go and see and curate your own collections, and people will over the years remember you and bring back photos of like, oh, do you remember me when we met in your in your first collection here? And they're like signed photos every year that they go.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

I mean, that it's it's somebody drew a picture of me once, which I thought was like really nice, you know. Like got presented with like this kind of drawing, you know, pencil drawing of myself. Nice, nice, which is which is incredible. Yeah, I mean, I I'm generally you know a Saka in Tokyo, and I'm I'm in and out and I'm either seeing mills or or you know, showrooms or you know that type of thing. So I I this time round I definitely want to try and see some of the country because I've never I've never seen outside of Osaka or Tokyo and um and the bullet train in between, you know.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

It's uh yeah, Kyoto, obviously you gotta you gotta yeah, Kyoto that's top of the list, yeah. Yeah, do the castle from from Bond. Well, um Kestin, uh I've only got a few minutes left on the call, but uh uh it's been fascinating talking to you. Thanks for walking us through the story. Um I wanted to quickly tap onto your designs. I know we were dialing back to earlier on in the conversations, but uh are there is there anything like from films, music, like iconography of your youth that are still prevalent in your designs today, do you think?

SPEAKER_00 21:53

Uh yeah, I think there's there's lots of different things over the years. But I mean I I do remember when I I started out when Working in uh well, I was I was at Northumbria Uni and I was studying fashion and I was I got there was an amazing independent which is not there now um called Strand in Newcastle and they were in Newcastle and and and Leeds and Dave Dalby um who was kind of the the buyer and owner of the brand, he used to, you know, he bought brands there. The first time I'd seen like you know, Prada Sport and when Neil Barrett was was creative director there, you know, and what they were doing now back then was the first time I'd seen like technical um fabrics put into to you know traditional menswear shapes and and styles, you know, and and the quality of the of the fabrics and and you know, probably all Italian, you know, Italian fabrics or Japanese fabrics. And you know, I think that was that was I saw then that you know you could potentially take, I like the twist that they put on the technical twist on on the traditional shapes or or styles. So and at the same time, I was working with Nigel Cable and helping cut patterns when I was a student and going up there. So I had this kind of world of of heritage and I had this world of tech. And I and I think for me now, and I see it a lot in in our design, you know, uh my designs, is that you know, take work where you know, particularly take a workwear jacket and and cut it in a in a technical nylon, or you know, so there's always a bit of a twist to it. And I and I can only think that that's where that started to to come from, and and and I became you know a fabric nerd and and nut. And you know, and when I was a nine, you know, K-born, he he was very purist, and and I liked the technical, you know, the Lamontas or the Ormitex or the you know Miyocchi or those kind of Italian mills that were real technical, and and so the the two together is is um, I suppose where where you see a lot of our our kind of um handwriting. Um that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

Yeah, no, that's fascinating. It's it's it's I I did a uh course, uh like a late fashion course, a night course just a few years ago. Um, kind of had a bit of a change gear in career and wanted to become like a fashion designer, or at least get to know the fabric and how to manipulate fabric more and really get my head in in the weeds. But it's it's honestly so much harder than people think. I think people have from the outside look at fashion design and think, well, let's just see how we can make a dress look or make a suit look or make something else aesthetically look, but they don't understand the minute of how fabric performs and what limitations certain fabrics have. And it's only when you get into those sort of things like seam allowance and you like quite all you're like, especially as a 44-year-old, I was like, I'm I'm good, you know. It's too late in the game for me, but maybe for someone else. Um, but yeah, so I'm always I'm always passing.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Maybe maybe it's like anything, it's like you got you know, you learn that I I mean, because I learned it so young, it it kind of just sort of stuck with me. And and I don't, I mean, you know, people say that to me. I I don't I find it very easy to kind of see what what something's gonna look from 2D into 3D, you know, and and I can kind of visualize that really easily. And and I I can if I can see a fabric, then I can visualize whether it's gonna work or not, or whether it's gonna be too lightweight or too heavyweight, or you know, all those things things very, very quickly, you know. What you know, but I'm extremely dyslexic and and you know, so that the there's lots of things that I that people find very easy that that I really struggle with, you know. Um you know that that's um, but my mom, you know, my dad was an architect and my mum was an interior designer, so I kind of grew up with this sort of you know world world of being able to translate, you know, 2D into 3D and and technical and and tactile and and you know, so it's it's kind of been drummed into me, you know, uh early on.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

Um that kind of intense academy learning and the creative kind of elsewhere, like you know, just harnessing whatever you can see into something palpable, I guess. And then your dad's very you know research driven, I guess, and everything is has to be on paper. But yeah, definitely Kestin. Um I'm gonna have to let you go. You've got a life to get on with. I've got a cat that's getting soaked outside. He he needs he needs to be let in, poor fella. And uh people can go find the brand uh obviously at in your in your stores around the world, uh Kestin.co, the website, and hang around on uh Instagram at Kestin.co, I believe. Um, but we'll leave all the links in the show notes. And again, Kestin, thanks so much for your time. Really great talking about it. Nice talking to you. You've been listening to the Menswear Style podcast. Be sure to head over to menswearstyle.co.uk for more menswear content and email for info at menswearstyle.co.uk if you would like to be a future guest on the show. Finally, please help support the show by leaving a review on iTunes or wherever you're listening to this podcast. Until next time.