PB: 0:14

Hello, welcome to another episode of the menswear style podcast. I'm your host Pete Brooker. Today I am talking to founder and CEO of hoo ha, Lorenzo vicini. hoo ha is a new platform helping consumers seek out and enjoy niche fragrances that may ordinarily be left undiscovered. The mainstream fragrance market is noisy and crowded. But there's a huge amount of independent fragrance producers who have previously found it near impossible to cut through with consumers with beauty hails feeling like a distant memory and virtual beauty discovery at its peak in consumer interest, now is the time to champion support and experiment with responsible, sustainable and unique fragrances with monthly delivery service who are Okay, so here to talk about who her in his own words, is Lorenzo vicini.

Unknown: 1:05

First, thanks for having me on it. So it's a really exciting opportunity to speak to you this evening. So yeah, my name is Lorenzo. I am, I guess you probably class me as an entrepreneur, now, CEO and founder who are so hoo, Ha is, you know, in its functional description, it's a it's a fragrant subscription service. Right? So that's kind of how you would class it. What does that really mean? I'd say, you know, if I was telling my friends, I'd say look, you know, we, I've described it as it is, which is, it's a discovery service that really helps you find new and exciting fragrances that you probably never usually find from smaller batch brands, that are probably got a lesser, lesser impact on the world. And that also means that you can discover these fragrances in the comfort of your own home, across a longer period of time, meaning you never have to go into another fragrance all again in your life if you don't want to. So it's kind of a game changer. We think you because you know this, there's so many things that just, we don't think a nice about fragrance. And we're trying to we're kind of trying to package it in a way that is just a bit more accessible and fun.

PB: 2:20

And it is fun. Because I went on the website and had a look through the bio and enjoyed the opening line of where you can have citrus notes, sandalwood, and unicorn farts all wrapped into one with like a Ford out laugh, you know, the cat jumped off my lap. I mean, it's it's my kind of brand. So maybe touch upon the, I guess the idea of the branding? And you know, your approach to that?

Unknown: 2:47

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think, you know, both my, you know, my business partner and I, Ryan and I were both relatively kind of, I guess, slightly irreverent people in in some areas of life. Some of that, you know, comes through more, some doesn't. But I think for us it was when we, when we started who it was part of a was actually a part of a journey into fragrance that we'd made about 18 months prior. So we'd started by setting up our own fragrance brand called bond, which was three unisex fragrances, right? And actually, what we found on that journey, and we can always go back there in a minute, was that we discovered this world of fragrance. We were both fragrance fanatics anyway, but what we found was the world of fragrance, just full of rubbish, full of marketing shizzle full of stuff that actually for us, is just so hideously outdated and irrelevant. In a world where people are just wanting to be communicated with on a more kind of on a more more of a level. Right. So I guess you know, if you visualise that, like, I'm not sure David Gandy in white pants is really the way that people want to be ravens anymore. I mean, if I look that good in White Plains, I'd probably wear them but I don't think people are quite connected with that kind of advertising and marketing anymore. So I think people are smarter than brands are giving them credit for and I think there was there's a bit of that there's also the reality that there's a lot of opacity and secrecy and guarded kind of things in fragrance that again, we just don't think is relevant. Well, where you know, people want transparency, they want openness, they want stewardship, they want a lot of things in their brands that a lot of these fragrance companies just can't do and or won't do. Right right. Yeah. So yeah, what I guess what was behind it was wanting to create a much more, I guess, some way to democratise the high end element of an industry that has been so secret and most people can't access it because most of the distribution is always geared towards the same brands, you know, the deck is stacked in favour of big brands in fragrance, basically, right? Because those retailers don't want to take the risk on a new brand. Because, you know, if you could stop D and G light blue over a niche fragrance brand, you go with dng. Light blue, because it's probably going to sell. Yeah. So I didn't know we wanted to take a gamble and help some help some new players, be introduced to people and make people's lives.

PB: 5:29

Yeah. Well, that's, that's interesting. I never really thought about it before. But there is so much pretension when it comes to aftershave brands in total. And I say I've never thought about it before. I do actually say to my girlfriend each time I see some kind of perfume ad. It's so nebulous and artsy for the sake of art. Like you'll have some like Chris Pine walking out onto a balcony and then doing up a button on his shirt, and then you're right, polo for men. What the hell is this? Well, it gives a crap about that.

Unknown: 6:01

Isn't the new new Burberry one, you got? Adam Brody, you know, naked on horseback? Right? I mean, that's not gonna make me buy that. It's just not.

PB: 6:11

So what are they trying? I mean, I don't want to drill down too heavily on other brands, but I'm just trying to get your take on what their thinking might be for this, is it because let's make this as aspirational as possible. That way we can get afford, get away with this price tag that we're going to attach to it. Do you think there's some of that?

Unknown: 6:28

You know, what I think it's a great question, I think. I mean, if you think about the kind of the marketing, or the playbook for a brand, when they're going to create a fragrance, right, you've got label wants to create fragrance, okay, label dng, whoever Burberry goes to fragrance producer, right, and there are four or five big ones in the world, there's your vada firmenich, co T IFF. And essentially, between them, they make almost every fragrance that you see on the shelf, right, any big department store, right? That there are others but they control it. So essentially, big brand goes, I want something that smells sweet caramely, and the customer is going to be this kind of person great. And then we'll put 20 million behind it to make a big ad campaign. And if it really works, we'll have one version of it. And then we'll create three or four that are what are called flankers. Which, if you fall in love with the first one, there's a good chance you're gonna buy the second and the third and the fourth one. So it means they can keep you buying their brand. And that, frankly, is what big fragrance is about.

PB: 7:41

Right. And that's been that way for what 20 years, do you think,

Unknown: 7:45

oh more. I mean, since since fragrance has started, right? And look, what we what we say we're not saying that the fragrance is bad, or any of that what we are saying is the way that it's currently architected, as an industry does not give these up and coming new, independent smaller batch people a good platform to launch their products, because if you don't have millions of pounds, it's quite hard to cut through. So when you look at, you know, the beauty industry and the wellness industry, you know, direct to consumer brands have thrived there because actually digital is a great medium for it. Because you can you can show what makeup does, you can show what skincare does, you can show what a lot of that does versus Franklin's. You've got to smell it. Just got to smell it, there's no substitute for it. You can you can reorder it online. But it's very difficult to discover something new because even if somebody writes something amazing about it, it's still like, a gamble. What if I don't like it? Yeah.

PB: 8:50

And it's interesting as well. It's, I want to draw parallels to like a, like, craft beer subscription service where you'll get something delivered. And it will be something unique that you're, you know, maybe introduced to a party of five or six coming up with poker games, you know what I mean? And then you've got that to champion and this is yours. And all of a sudden, you're, you're quite different by osmosis, because you're introducing new things. Yeah. Is that kind of like transmitting that to your brand and your business? Are you kind of wanting people to be the first to have something new that they wouldn't necessarily have been introduced to previously?

Unknown: 9:28

100% It's, that really is a big, big element of that. And I think, you know, when we look at when we look at the reviews that we have from our service, and our customers, something that shines through time and time again is it's just great that that you know, people mentioned my sin they haven't they haven't commented on what I've worn for years and you know, I feel so confident wearing and I don't know like everybody else and and actually, I think that's a that's a really great thing too. You've kind of introduced people to write. And you're right, you know that, if you like, the niche part of the industry is a little bit like the craft beer. And you know, let's say that, you know, the kind of coffee movement that started Yeah. These things. But I think what happened in let's say the craft beer industry is, there were some craft beers made, and then consumed them, the consumers demonstrated that they wanted it. So more was made. And it kind of went like this was happening fragrances, lots of it's been made. But the consumers haven't been able to say, Oh, this is great, because it's not available. Because the distribution points aren't as, like I said, they're not as forgiving and as open to these new brands. So I think that's where things have kind of stalled a bit. But the reality is, right, when you look at kind of where the market is working, and where it's not, the sales of kind of mass fragrances going like that. So all of your kind of designer, fragrances area, and Grande and all these kind of celebrity stuff, they're just not working like they used to. And what's happening is the higher end the fragrance, and then more niche brands are starting to grow. And it and it kind of, you know, we hear it from lots of different brands, people don't want to snap like everybody else again, right? Yeah. Yeah. You know, people I don't know, it's, I think people are just a bit sick of being. And also, why would you want to buy the same fragrance for 10 or 15 years? It's like, same pair of jeans, do you?

PB: 11:38

So I've got a theory on that. I think it's I think it's just generally guys are a little bit thick. If you give guys the option of one brand that they had from the age of 16, they'll go right, well, I know what Nike fits like, so I'll just wear Nike for the rest of my life. And then I've squared that box. You know, if you just go out, I'll just have macaroni and cheese because I know what that tastes like. I don't want to risk anything else on the menu, because I don't know what it's like. But then I don't know. Well, that's a that's a bit of a generalisation. But you are, I think guys are typically quite loyal to brands. So I don't think that yes, anything new? How do you get to vet? The brands? And the perfumes and the urine? Yeah.

Unknown: 12:18

Yeah. Do you know what that's that's actually one of the best parts of running a business like ours, right? Because, you know, we're all we're all very, very interested in the catch up, right? We love discovering new fragrances ourselves. So we're, we're perfect customers for our brand, right? So for us, when when these brands, when we started out, it was a case of, we had our own collections, we knew the brands that we would love to, to kind of stock, and we went out to speak to them. So this is what we're going to do. Lots of them are like, No, guys. I don't think so. And there was a handful that said, Yes, we're going to back you. And we built on that. But what happens now is, you know, we're a curated service, right, right now, which means, as you say, lots of brands are are sending our samples in. And we have to evaluate those fragrances to make sure that not only is it a brand that kind of fits our philosophy, which is you know, we're looking for more independent smaller batch producers that got a underdog story. Yeah, the people that that are coming up through, right. You know, I don't know whether, you know, let's just drop brands like the lava BYREDO, you know, we wouldn't work with them, because they're too big for us, they don't need us. But what we want to do is help nurture and bring them through the next one. Right? That would be success for us creating one that went on to, you know, to kind of hit the big time. But for us, it's about, you know, fragrances that a complete, that they tell a whole story that you can tell that it's not, you know, they're not rushed, that their their great work, and that they have a story behind them that's authentic. And that is coherent, because I think what you do also find is there is a lot of fragrances, there are a lot of fragrances being made, and some of them aren't fantastic. Some of them aren't great. Some of them are okay, so we have to do is make sure that at least in our subscriptions, we're fee we're featuring ones that we think are going to tick the boxes that our customers want. And that doesn't always mean it has to be a blockbuster or a kind of one that's going to fill the room. It just means one that it's going to it's going to fit what we feel that particular edit, as we call them. Is is going to do but you know we have a we have a wonderful, wonderful lady Brooke, who is our head of curation. And essentially Her job is to smell fragrances, majority of the day, evaluate take note and you know, between us, we kind of decide which ones we're going to feature and It's it's such a fantastic job to do that.

PB: 15:04

What are the cool things? Not cool? What are the right things to say when you smell a fragrance but you can't quite place it. So I see a lot of bloggers online and when they do those tasters and testers, I can see that panic in their eyes because they don't quite know what to say. And normally they go well that's very fresh and I'm like, Oh come on, let's call it fresh. Everything's fresh. I don't know maybe helped me out because I don't have the nose but I want to get some phraseology down where I know at least I know what I'm talking about. Like I do.

Unknown: 15:40

Okay, well I think so for you then probably a good thing to do would be to Google the fragrance wheel right? So have a look at the fragrance wheel. And essentially what that will give you is the core fragrance families right now there are let me let me just I'm going to make sure I get this right because sometimes I miss a couple let's get this right hold on. Oh no,

PB: 16:02

I like the sound of because you got chills and you can always tie in things with other grouping. So like this

Unknown: 16:08

exactly. But so we've got so this there are okay. So you've got florals you've got fruit teas, you've got gourmand. Go Mandra going on so a gourmand the Gorman category of fragrances that kind of smell like food or drink category so that they usually you know, they might smell of coffee or chocolate or brandy or something like that they tend to be kind of classed as a gourmand category. Then you've got you've got herbals, you've got spicy, you've got Woods, Woods, the you know woody woody ones tend to be the kind of the most popular right? Citrus, of course. I mean, citrus is probably the best category for summer. But there's some really interesting thing about citrus you know, what you tend to read on reviews of any fragrances that are citrusy is I've just spent 100 odd pounds on our citrus fragrance the only last two hours this is disgraceful, it's like citrus doesn't last it was through is what it's basically made from and those ingredients just don't last. So the only way you can make a citrus fragrance lasts longer is to put things that are heavier on the base and that's what you smell later but you won't be able to smell the lemons and the lines and the bergamot later on because they just disappear as a bit of education as well in there. And you've got clean fragrances so it might be something that smells a bit of laundry or ozone E or breezy you know these kinds of smells. But I think floral is one of the interesting categories right? Because as guys, we've traditionally kind of probably shied away from florals, but you know, we're you know, we're told florals are for women and you know, we should be with woods and leather and patchouli and all of that. But I mean we've we've featured some incredible floral fragrances this year and guys on our subscription at basically just going I had no idea that I could wear a floral and this thing is just insane. And it's been really interesting. I mean who was hanging on? So I've just trying to think of the guy. I've just got to tell you a little story. He was a he was basically he conquered Europe wearing violence. Okay, what we got to come up with the guy's name Napoleon essentially used to wear violet every day now and this is what I say to guys who say I can't wear flowers it's like guys come on. If a guy can basically dominate Europe

PB: 19:46

the world you

Unknown: 19:47

manage it right it's not a big deal you can cope with it. So

PB: 19:51

I'm only five foot five so I'll I'll seek out them exclusively for sure people that want to conquer the world that have got daddy issues Okay, great. I like it. So if someone asked me you know, what are you getting? I can be like, Oh, I'm getting notes of Goldman but then there's a push of violet somewhere. It's a bit like when I like when people taste wine. Someone goes yeah, getting forest floor I'm like ah, that's good. You know your onions. When someone tastes whiskey and says I'm getting vanilla notes. I know they're talking shit

Unknown: 20:32

but you know it's a very it's a very interesting world. Once you once you get going. I you know I'd spend I had a visit to Greece. is about three, four years ago and spent time in one of the museums there. And they do a proper kind of, they take you into the note centre, and they kind of say, right, smell this and all this. And it's just, it's just such an experience.

PB: 20:53

How does the subscription service work? Please, maybe walk me through that?

Unknown: 20:58

Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, one of the things for us was about trying to trying to make it as simple as we could for people. Because, you know, we're aware that there's a few things that we're doing that are a bit of a leap of faith for people, right. You know, we're doing nice fragrance, not everybody knows what that is. We're doing a subscription service that's still, you know, even though we know that they're, you know, most people are subscribed to, you know, multiples these days, it's still okay, so fragrance by subscription. So what we wanted to do is go okay, well, let's not, let's put, let's not put too much more mental load on people. So we've kind of made it, right. Yes, we're fragrance by subscription. They're not fragrances that you're going to find in a department store. And we've essentially curated three edits, right, three paths, if you like. One is called Easy does it. And you know, the Samsung there are, they're all high quality they're all old apart from but they're going to be easier to get your head around, they're going to be easy to kind of associate with and understand. Right. Then the next one up is buckle up. And that's kind of all right, well, perhaps this is not your first rodeo, you know, maybe maybe you've gone to Yeah, yeah, maybe you've got a bottle of I don't know Frederic Malle or BYREDO or something in the cupboard or a Lambo, and you're thinking, Okay, well, yeah, you know, I've moved off D and G, I'm gonna move up here as well. And then the other one is, you know, the, the out there, one is take me to Mars. And, you know, the fragrances that we put in there deliberately are there to challenge people, because people that sign up to that edit, they want to be challenged, they want their olfactory kind of senses to be challenged. And oh my god, we have done that. We've, we've sent fragrances out there that people have gone, oh my god, this is just the most bizarre thing I've ever smelled in my life. And that's why we create that edit for that very, very thing. So essentially, what people do is they they sign up for one of those, and you get 110 mil bottle, travel size bottle comes through your door every month. If you're starting to feel that, you know the path you're on isn't delivering you the best fragrances every month, you can shift to one of the other ones. Were always you know, you can always look on the website and see what fragrances shipping that month so you can read about it. And you can go Alright, well I know my fragrances is going to ship on the 15th of the month. I don't like the sound of that one. But I love the sound of that one you can move. So that's what's happening. That's the model at the moment people can sign up on a kind of a recurring subscription, or they can prepay they can buy a three or a six or 12 month with a bit of a discount so and they can gift it that's been quite interesting at Christmas. Two people were buying three or six or 12 month subscriptions as gifts. It's actually it's a really nice gift because it every month Yeah, I did person that bought you this gift and that is

PB: 24:10

exactly yeah. And you just got to make sure that they don't move. And forget all about those gifts that you're now giving a complete stranger. But you're right I am I did do that for for my brother. I think it was like a magazine or something. And in each start of each month, he would text me and go, I've got it. And I'm like, Who's this again? Oh, yeah, that's right, because we normally only talk for Christmas. Now we can talk. But yeah, love it. Lorenzo, I was just going to ask you about the branding as well. Because what the branding was really cool. I don't quite know what to call it or how how to coin it perhaps is the best way to help me.

Unknown: 24:52

Yeah. You know, it's it. I'm glad you asked because I think it's something that Ryan and I spent so much time getting right because like anyone could knock up a ecommerce site with Squarespace or Shopify. You know, you haven't got to be smart to create a website, right anymore. You don't need design skills. You don't need branding skills, really. But we felt if we're going to launch this project, and we've got a hope of cutting through particularly with the makers. Right, we've got to create something that really does stand out from other offerings. So that was what we really felt we had to do because even though we want to remove a lot of the kind of, you know, the complexity and the pomp, we've still got to represent very luxury products. So we had to create something that that had a feeling of, of premium, right, which, which, hopefully, we've managed to do. So they were the kinds of things that we still knew we needed to do. We wanted to create a brand that was unisex, because you know, even though, you know, 68 70% of our customers are women, we believe that fragrances for all and most of our fragrances are unisex fragrances, we we select them specifically to be unisex. Because, again, there's a huge group of people out there now that really don't care at the helm. This one's for men, this one's for women, this one's so so the brand had to speak to both sexes, all sexes in a way that kind of wasn't alienating anybody. And we also wanted it to be really cool. We wanted it to be a little bit different. So I think you know, what start would I call it? I mean, some people have said it's quite sort of pop party. It's it's got a sort of Bauhaus.

PB: 26:44

I was gonna say Bauhaus, but because I know nothing about art. I was wondering, am I just talking about my? I was gonna say it's definitely,

Unknown: 26:53

yeah, it's got it's got a bounce kind of feel to it. And, yeah, I think it seems to be working, right. But

PB: 27:04

again, I don't want to blow too much smoke up your ass. But I think it was really the one of the the main losers for me on the website was just how cool it looked and how it is very easy to navigate around. But you're right, it didn't have that cookie cutter feel that have that websites have these days, because you know, anyone, even just like me can make a Shopify website or whatnot. So it does look like it's something that's been, you've taken care of it. And you've and you've also wanted to make it look like a club that you want to be along belong to, if that makes sense. So

Unknown: 27:37

thanks for saying that. Sounds good? Yeah, it's you, when you're trying to when you're trying to know encourage, you know, pretty niche, high end luxury brands that are very particular about where they want to be stocked, you have to you have to have something that's a little bit different. And it's funny, you know, we were, we were talking to a to a new brand, I think, this week. And now I always ask, why did you pick us? Why asked not, blah, blah, blah. And they said, because, because you're doing something different. And your brand is cool. And you you're, you seem to stand for something. And and we love how you're representing the brands, and we love how you're representing fragrance. And actually you're doing it in a way that no one else is like, Thank you. Can you be on our website?

PB: 28:35

Just say all that again, but into the well, I think you're doing the Lord's work over there. What are the maybe give our listeners an idea of the prices? So they know what they're in? For? Yeah.

Unknown: 28:48

Yeah. So. So if anybody looks around? I mean, we generally give people I mean, right now, there's a 30% off your first month, right? So, you know, the standard is 14 pounds 95. Most people pay, I think it's like 10 pound 46 for their first month, and then it reverts back to 14 pounds 95 per month. Right. But if we think about context here, right? The cheapest of our pregnancies is 65 pounds for 30. Mil. Right. All right. So you know, most people are used to getting 100 mil bottle of perfume, fragrance, and they're probably going to pay anything from 40 up to maybe 80 quid, maybe 100 quid for it, right. So if you think about the price per ml that we're giving people is incredible value, it's like to go and to go and sample some of our fragrances that retails at 180 190 euros for 50 mil you just a you'd be lucky to find them be when you went into the store and said can I have a terminal sample for 15 pounds so probably frogmarched you out the door there? So, you know, it's there's this real value, actually part of what we're doing for the consumer consumers that that sometimes I don't think people quite get their head around 15 quid for 10 minute fragrance. And then when we start to go well actually, you know, we're talking normally fragrance might is maybe eight pounds per our stuff can range up to 50 quid for terminal a fragrance.

PB: 30:25

And also you've got a library or a wardrobe now of scents that you kind of build up rather than going out and say well, I need to have like say 10 cents to get me through the year and then I'll have to spend X amount to get those bottles in taking up have loads of real estate in the bathroom, which no guy has I know. So I'm guessing that allure as well as that, you're going to have a lot of variety. And you're also going to kind of minimise the space. So that's all going to live and exist in.

Unknown: 30:55

Totally. And there is there is absolutely this, this notion of a fragrance wardrobe. I'm glad you said it. And I didn't have to I didn't. But I mean, I, you know, I literally, as you'd expect, I probably got 100 fragrances that I can dig into on a daily basis, which sometimes paralyses me in the morning, but But generally, you know, it's great. And as soon as people have more than two or three fragrances, that's another thing that they'll say that this is amazing having different fragrances to reach for, for different occasions or different feelings. And for us, that's just a normal way of life. But for most people. And actually, it should be because like we said, the beginning you don't wear you don't wear the same item of clothing to go to the office as you do to play football or whatever. So, you know, kind of fragrances is, is in the same category, right? It's a very personal thing, but it's also something that other people get to smell. So you got to be a bit mindful about that. And a lot of people aren't.

PB: 32:00

I know, I mean, and people get pigeonholed by what they smell like, you know, it's like, especially if you're working in a very closed environment with other people and if you don't have a great expanse and your fragrance wardrobe people can go well I know exactly what this guy is about. It's not maybe a bad fragrance but you you're not really keeping people on their toes in terms of

Unknown: 32:21

NO NO and and it's also it's been contextually aware about your fragrance as well right you know some people want to you know, some people want to go into a room and they want the fragrance to enter maybe a minute before them and then wanting to stick around for half an hour or an hour after. Okay, that's fine. But actually for a lot of people that's a bit much you know, you don't want to be that woman or that guy that ever got it yeah. Is there like whoa, at least like wow no I think there's you know, if you're gonna fill a room with a set make damn sure it's a good one. I want you to walk back in again not never never come back in because you've kind of you know, you've left a scent trail that is not as nice as it could be.

PB: 33:10

Yeah, I just had a thought so the people in the offices right now have all that kind of multiplex now because they use a COVID right and at some point people are gonna go well we can probably dispense with that well apart from the guy that just as the horrible sent in the voting keep him keep him good food you know he's a he's got no say in this don't give don't give him the memo it will just be him in a bit of Percy place will be like silver and sky for when he gets caught. Anyway, I'm going off on a tangent learn to Okay. Speak to you for hours. I appreciate you got to live to get on with who had the place to go who had heard about UK. Spelt like it sounds like it sounds funny. But we'll leave all the links over on the show notes at menswear style dot code at UK. And yeah, great fun. Thanks for all the info and and keep it going.

Unknown: 33:58

Thanks, Pete. It's really brilliant talking to you. One day, one day, I'm gonna get a microphone like that. I'm so envious.

PB: 34:06

Well, it's not that professional. I'm clutching it between my knees and as I just tilt it back it just everything felt like a house of cards, but uh, that's okay. I laid it out in posting great talking to you. All right, really enjoyed it.

Unknown: 34:23

Thank you see you bye bye

PB: 34:37

you've been listening to the menswear style podcast be sure to head over to menswear style dot code at uk for more menswear content and email info at menswear style dot code at UK if you'd like to be a future guest on the show. Finally, please help support the show by leaving a review on iTunes or wherever you're listening to this podcast. Until next time