SPEAKER_01 0:12

Welcome back to another episode of the Mentor Style podcast. I'm your host, V. Broker, and today I am talking to Mark Francis. He is the founder and creative director of Heron Sky, a cosmopolitan tailoring brand based in London Federal. The brand approaches each collection with an openness to the world. It takes us to its rich heritage in tailoring as a starting point for Fifth, and has luxurious natural fabrics fused with the British craftsmanship to produce clothing and accessories characterized by their hybridity, superlative quality, and relaxed elegance. And heronsgill.com is the place you can go. We'll leave the links over at menswearstyle.com. But now to talk about the brand in his own words is Mark Francis from Heron's Gill.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

So I would describe Heron's Gill as men's tailor like a men's tailoring brand, but like with tailoring seen through a fashion lens. I think fashion has perhaps like mixed connotations. But the aspects I'm referring to are um critical thinking. So where I think tailoring might um differ to like very established forms. I think fashion is interesting in rethinking some of these like um long-held tenets. Um another aspect of like reinvention, so where I think you know there's this idea of like a classic um menswear like like format, um fashion really like looks to reinvent itself like every year, every season. Um and and another one being like you know, a more liberal approach to dressing versus being extremely rules-bound. So where I think um traditional quote unquote tailoring might be focused on like whether or not an upturn cuff uh can be worn with you know, like pleated trousers, for example. I think they're like fashion is slightly more personal and slightly more individual. So that's what I mean by like scrutinizing like this this very established format of tailoring through a more fashion lens. And why tailoring? I think I've always just been drawn to formality and complexity. And I think the tailoring form lends itself to the expression of very high quality material, so you know, the juxtaposition of like a beautiful button with like interesting fabrics. Um, and the brand itself, like, because I mean it is a brand that like houses of like products within it. I think the brand itself um is rooted in a cosmopolitan ethos. Um, and cosmopolitanism is like a quality that I've valorized for as long as I remember. Um, and the archetype in my head of like what a cosmopolitan is is this idea of a man who is like broadly cultured, um someone that's at ease anywhere in the world, someone that's able to put like someone and like other people at ease, um, someone that's interested in international affairs, um, because I think the world is fundamentally very interesting. And to limit myself to a very like narrow geography would just be, yeah, I don't know, like slightly limiting. Um, yeah, so we start with a stand collar suit um to establish a beachhead in menswear, because I think um the majority of menswear is quite competitive and there are lots of new brands. So we really wanted to dominate something that we saw that was uh was more of a blue ocean, so like high quality stand collars, um, and then expand from there.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

And just take me back a little. So, what is your background coming into the brand?

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Uh, my background, I have a so I was born in Malaysia, um, but of of like Chinese and Sri Lankan extraction. Um, so again, this idea of hybridity and cosmopolitanism comes into play. Um, I went to school in the US um in a private liberal arts college. Um, and then I was also educated in France, I did an MBA in France. Um, but professionally I like had you know a very corporate background. So I worked in investment banking, corporate strategy, and then I um worked at Farfetch, if you know it, it's a luxury fashion retailer. Yep, sure. Yeah, and also along the way worked in like software development, well, web development, um, and and was briefly like CEO of a venture-backed fashion startup. So I think like the idea here, like it sounds like slightly scattered, but I think the idea was always that I was going to be like I was always going to have my own brand. So I was like trying to acquire, like pre-MBA, uh a very broad based skill set, like um, and and then the idea being that after like the MBA, I would acquire functional knowledge within the industry of my choosing, which is um fashion and apparel.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

Interesting. And I I often ask um the founders of people that come on the show, like what are their main influences behind the designs of their garments or or their products? And I think you've perhaps touched upon it there, being you know a cosmopolitan person and kind of I guess cherry-picking different things that you may have seen along the way with different influences. Perhaps we can just drill down on that. Is there something in your personal style or maybe from the iconography of your youth that you hang on to? And that's that's been implemented in these designs.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

Sure. So I think aesthetically, um I would describe my aesthetic as shabby intellectualism meets like weathered like majesty. Um, I don't draw from like overt references, but I think my sensibility is definitely like shaped by like a few, like a lot, a very diverse range of experiences, but three major theme, like like influences would be first of all, obviously growing up in Malaysia. Now, the you know, the history of Malaysia is relatively recent. I would struggle to suggest that we have like um like okay, so I so I think what I take from my Malaysian upbringing is really like an appreciation of like natural fabrics, because of the the weather, like you know, being as hot as it is and as humid as it is, like um polyester just does not feel comfortable to wear. And I speak from personal experience. Um also uh an appreciation of like really vibrant colors. Um partly it's again nature, like you know, tropical flowers, but also like uh as I mentioned, like you know, Chinese, Indian, like these just very colorful like cultures that that that like exist in Malaysia. Um I think you know, things like side splits I've always been a fan of, um, which is I suppose a design feature that might be seen on a tang jacket, for example. Um gold, like hardware, again, like auspicious in Chinese culture. Um, so that's the Malaysian aspect. I think another one would be my American liberal arts, like education, and especially like the culture around like elite American colleges. Like um, with that, I think I've inherited a love of like slouchiness and bagginess and and and ease, like um befitted like in the tradition or in the legacy of like American sportswear. Um, and then I'm also very like interested in the 1980s in general. Um, there was like an individualism, like a hopefulness and a confidence that like pervaded um during that era. Um and and and and specifically, I also I think my a lot of the references I make to the 1980s like are rooted in British music, specifically like yacht rock, like prefab sprout, blue Nile, um, and also British subculture from that like era, so like classic goth, aka like slash post punk, and maybe even the new romantic. So so it's a real like mishmash of different influences, but I think there's an element of dandyism and an element of like like a countercultural spirit, but also like opulence and a love of opulence, um, and that's how it's sort of like fashioned this brand.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Yeah, yeah. And uh touching upon what you mentioned about the weather in Malaysia, I guess that's where you lean into the seersucker and the linen, which is apparent in your collection. And I guess also in America as well, where certain parts will be hotter than most. Does that lend itself to say the British climate where it's pretty cold as balls, maybe nine months of the year?

SPEAKER_00 8:49

Yeah, um, I think the thing is British weather is never extreme, right? So it's never extremely hot and it's never extremely cold. So I feel like linen is actually very appropriate for more months of the year, because I think even in Malaysia, like a linen suit is a bit of a tough like thing to wear, like in 30, like six degree humidity. Um, where else like an English summer, like you know, it doesn't get any better than linen, um, like layered linens. Um, and even all the way from like I don't know, like late spring to like late or like early spring to late fall in in the UK, I think um, yeah, linen's great.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

So yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I've I've got a bunch of different linen jackets. I just find that even though it's it's not always conducive to the British climate, if you are someone that's traveling a fair bit to Europe, which is like only a two-hour plane ride and you could be in Tuscany, right? I mean, you'll still look good, and those sort of jackets and those fabrics will lend itself way more to those those kind of climates, and it's it's not a million miles away. Um, yeah, I'm interested, Mark, about how if you're not um, I don't think you're technically like uh educated in fashion, for example, yeah going to fashion colleges. How do you get the ideas out of your head, especially with the designs? Uh, have you picked up drawing skills along the way? How do you execute the ideas from your head onto onto paper, effectively?

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Yeah, I mean, I've always like drawn. Um, and also I think Garmin making, like, I think a lot of like the fashion designers like I have admired through history haven't gone to fashion school. I think the idea of a fashion school is a relatively recent phenomenon. I think um I do like I how did I pick up the skills to design clothes? Like, I you know, I I like I think I've always had an interest in it. So I've always so I started with what I would do with any new subject, which is to take my existing clothes apart to figure out how patterns worked. Um, and then just also like finding a mentor. And in my case, it's in the form of Nikki, who is my like main pattern cutter. So as a team, like you know, we deconstruct garments and reconstruct them. Um and it's really like trial and error, like or like I've spent the past three years like primarily focused on product development, um, which means that I think I have achieved a certain level of expertise um uh yeah in in in garment engineering. Um what was the question again?

SPEAKER_01 11:36

No, no, that's that's kind of nail done now. I mean basically trying to uh trying to understand how you get the ideas from your sorry, yeah. And then to kind of flesh it out into a product.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Yeah, so so I think, yeah, I mean I do draw, like um, I do sketch, but I think with menswear especially, I think there is, I think menswear operates with more subtlety, right? So it's really like um in terms of so what one we talked about linen before, a linen jacket. Um, I like wanted, I think linen, like linen's one of my favorite fabrics because it has natural structure, but also drape and it's soft. Um, and so I think like linen with a lining is like slightly ruined. So I wanted an unlined linen jacket, but I didn't want, but like when you unline a jacket, you tend to have like facings that just sort of flap on the inside, right? Which you can bind with like um like bias tape, for example, to neaten it out. But I wanted something that was just like unflappable um and and just very clean on the inside, so no flapping seams. So so the pego jacket, which is made in linen, for example, is uh like the the outcome of this, like this, this, this, this design problem. Um, and so what I did was extend the facings into the side seams and like use um lapped seams like on all over the like garment. So so everything's basically like sewn flat down. Um and and that's like sort of the the you know the genre of like what it means to design menswear. I think you can go big, yeah. Like I think the biggest thing you could do um is perhaps like especially when you talk about the tailoring form, is perhaps like change the color, because I think that really like radically reconstructs um the garment. But for the for the other aspects, I think you know, like it's it's just like trying to understand what you want and trying to figure out a solution. And I think you know, the internet is like a very like helpful resource in understanding what sort of possibilities there are in terms of scenes or like finishes. Another thing is like um just testing, right? There's there's no better way to learn fashion than than to test like certain fusings or canvassings with the fabric. I think you can't design your way into that.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Yeah. And and did it was it something that you picked up relatively quickly, like taking your clothes apart and then putting them together and kind of reconstructing everything? Did do you feel like you had a a natural a natural talent at that?

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Uh I I mean it took me three years. So I think it's only I started. I mean, I start okay, I started with like getting my usual tailor to try and make me a Mandarin suit, um, I don't know, in like 2017, so however many years ago, six years ago. Um and that I was just not happy with the outcome because I think when you get when you have someone who's like trained in a certain like tradition, um getting them to depart from that just like and also it just and uh that's when I knew that there was something more to like just the collar that I was trying to articulate, right? So it's like drape and and and and construction and like like taking out the guts of of of of a typical tailored jacket and like reconstituting that in like like softer, softer, I don't know, like interfacings, for example, or just removing the interfacing and like relying on scene. Um uh but yeah, it's like I think I've properly started like you know, sampling um like consistently since like at the start of 2020. Um and it's really like I mean, I can't tell you how many rounds of samples we've gone through, like um, but it's only like really this year, like especially to like recently that I feel like I've hit my stride and I've nailed it. Like where once it would have taken like four samples to get like a product to market these days, it's like you know, one, two at most.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

That's interesting. Yeah, I want to get onto the the stand-up colour tailoring in a in a second, but I can just imagine in in the film of your life, Mark, there'll be a moment where you'll be your uh your better half will come home and find all of his suits kind of ripped apart on the floor, and you try and try to get it all together before we get done. And then when it's all done together, it's like oh yes, you like narrow jackets, right? All of your jackets are now conveniently standing colours. You're welcome.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

No, I mean the thing is uh like the only I the only point I want to make about that is that like I think I have I mean it's the only thing I've looked at for the well it's not the only thing, but it's the primary thing I've looked at for the past three years. Um and I think I've reached a point where I'm like I've taken this as far as I want to take it for now. And so next year, like a sneak preview. I'm uh the one thing that's interesting in uh interesting to me at the moment is like the idea of like a low gorge lapel. So that is something that I I think I I I have a like double breasted overcoat on the website that has a relatively lowish gorge, but I'm really trying to like drop that even further. So that's what's to come next year.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

Interesting. Well, I mean, I I associate the low gorge lapel with a lot of 80s styling and early 80s deconstructed suits. I mean, you touched upon your 80s heritage earlier on. So so do you and I say this to people all the time, I feel like their like tailoring is quite cyclical. So you'll have yeah, like you'll have a very kind of touch-to-fit suit, quite baggy, but uh you know, very comfortable fitting suits, like I guess early 2000s, and then gradually it kind of comes in and comes in, gets very tight. Imagine I I guess Daniel Craig Spectre 2015. And you think, well, it can't get any more tighter than that. So it has to go back the other way. The the waistband has to come higher, the the lapels have to go wider. So are we now, do you think, kind of coming to the end of uh well, not the end, but uh maybe a rebirth of the the low gorge lapel? Do you think like that these are uh are just round the corner, or is it something that you're just very interested in trying?

SPEAKER_00 17:47

I honestly I have no idea. Like I think, like I would like it. I it like I just I don't have the ability to predict trends. Um, and I'm also just not interested in going down that route, I think. Um, but I do uh like it's just something I'm interested in trying. I think I think maybe you're right. Like, I mean, as you said, like fashion life, everything is cyclical, right? So we have like pretty much peaked on like skinny, and I think like the overly high gorge to me just looks a bit awkward, like a like a push-up bra. So I think I just want to like start, and and I think like a low gorge like ties with like a looser like silhouette. Um, for like uh yeah, so so I I think like if the industry is headed towards the looser silhouette, which I think I've seen been seeing a lot of, but I don't know if it's reached its peak yet. I think we're still on on on the like we haven't reached the crest, but like we are on the cusp of a trend, I suppose. Um, but at the same time, like the feedback I get is that people are still like like certain segments of my customer are still quite tied or tethered to um a slimmer leg, right? So so so so I don't know, like maybe maybe yeah, like maybe it's a two-year, three-year thing, like before we start seeing um this manifest and tailoring, maybe it's sooner.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

Yeah, it's it so it's interesting. You can't well you have to have enough distance from it so it doesn't look dated, but then it can't be too on the nose with it that it looks anachronistic, right? Like you're trying to do something you know entirely derivative. So yeah, I'll be interested in seeing what you come up with. Yeah. Uh I guess well, that leaves us on. What are you what are you up to for the for the new year, the 2024? Have we got any plans to do any bricks and mortar, any pop-ups showcases?

SPEAKER_00 19:40

Yeah, so um, like I I mean the long-term plan would definitely be to have bricks and mortar, but I think um for the moment, uh, this is only our like first full year of trading. So I think we are just taking things slow. I think next year it's probably going to be more of the same. Um, but like with you know, like just building building out the range a lot more, as I said. Like I think um we have dominated this niche of stand collar luxury tailoring. And I think it's time to extend that, like using you know, certain blocks that we are fairly comfortable with, um, and developing like like you know, a range of different collars um that might pair nicely with these blocks. Um, and then you're right, like I think in general, I think we've also reached peak digital fatigue, and I think there's an interest in like reconnecting physically. Um, so while we may not be in a position to like go to and go like go down the bricks and mortar, like permanent bricks and mortar route, I think um trunk shows are definitely on the cards. Like we had our first one like a couple of weeks ago, and that was quite an interesting and like yeah, like a very like compelling um experience. So I think that's definitely something we're going to pursue next year. Um, also just like as I said earlier, uh, like I've not we've we have not done enough like engagement with like like the the industry or like externally. Um and that's all like quite fundamental to brand building. So I think our initial customer was really like somebody that was looking for something very specific, like beige linen Nehru suit. Um and so and that's great, like and I'm very grateful for this like early adopter customer. Um but I think you know, in terms of expansion, there's definitely a lot more that can be done in terms of like getting the word out, speaking to people, honing my like, you know, um my my my my my my spiel. Um and I think I'll be going to Pity in January. Um so if anybody's there, like very happy to connect. Um, but yeah, that's it. I think it's very hard to like look too far into the future, but that's what I have planned so far.

SPEAKER_01 21:59

Fantastic. Well, Mark, it's been wonderful talking to you and getting to know you and getting to know the brand. I recommend everybody check the brand out at heronsgill.com. Gil is g-h y double l, I believe. Exactly. And we'll we'll put all the links on the show notes as well. So you can just scroll down in the in the in the notes here and on the website menswearstyle.co.uk, we'll put them up there. And hang out on the Instagram. I'm gonna give you a follow now because I've just found you. It's herons.gil. Yes, exactly. Hitting the follow button. The imagery is strong, looks exotic. Well, it's like so. Yeah, do you do you do all this yourself in terms of every imagery? Yeah, yeah. Fantastic. Yeah, brilliant. Well, listen, a really interesting place to hang out as well. It's not just clothes, it's uh architecture, it's it's furniture, it's it's poetry. Exactly. From uh Christian Morgenson, the bio. Well, home is not where you live, but where they understand you. Exactly. German poets seem to be. That's a good note to go uh on, I think. Mark, thanks so much for your time and best of luck, mate.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

Um, you've been listening to the men's vertical podcast.

SPEAKER_01 23:26

And email.