SPEAKER_01 0:10

Welcome back to another episode of the Men's Wear Style Podcast. I'm your host, Pete Brooker. Today on the show, I am talking to the founder of Pampiano, Jennifer Brown. Inspired by South America's rich heritage of unrivalled horsemanship and traditional leatherwork, Pampiano bold from the polo fields of central Argentina. Pampiano remains one of the few brands with quality and craftsmanship at its heart. Continuing the cherished techniques of the South American artists, Pampiano uses only premium grade butter-soft vegetable tan leather and the finest luxury natural textiles and threads available. And here to talk about Pampiano in her own words is the founder, Jennifer Brown.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

So my name is Jenny. I uh founded Pampiano 15 and a half years ago when I was living in South America, in Argentina specifically, and uh spending, well, I was living there, but also, you know, coming back to the UK a bit and uh going back and forth for subsequent years.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

So what was uh what were the first steps of of starting the brand after going back and forth to South America?

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Um yeah, so I so I uh I had quite a few friends who came out to stay when I was there, and uh they encouraged me to uh start a business. I when they came to stay, I would say things, you know, I would tell them my ideas and they said, just do it, just do it. And so I did it. Um I would uh they have these beautiful shops called Talabatarias, um, where the sort of really high-quality leather goods would be sold uh along with clothing and equestrian articles, all artisanal, handmade, beautiful things made with natural products. And both myself and my my friends who had come out would just sort of fall in love when you walk into these shops. Um, the the smell of the leather, the quality of the products, the the absence of plastic, um which 15, 16 years ago wasn't a wasn't a sort of an environmentally aware perspective. It was just something really lovely about the basic quality of the product. Well, they were basic products, but the quality was very, very evident, uh, and all using natural materials. Um and we I I remember discussing with a couple in particular how much the European customer would love what we were loving. Um, and so really that was about as thought through as it was. Um and I started, I went, I found factories to work with and I gave them my designs for various leather goods, and they started to produce them. We came up with the name Pampiano, it means from someone from La Pampa, which is the central part of one of the central provinces of Argentina. And um I started bringing them over and started selling them with not really a clue of how how retail works.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Um, but I learned so so you were uh you started the business while you were living in South America, or were these just designs that were getting influenced?

SPEAKER_00 3:21

Yeah, it was more the designs. I'd moved back to the UK when I then started, I got the website built, the first version of the website with sort of five, six websites on from that. Um, yeah, so I didn't once I was back in the UK is once I received my first delivery of stock. So um yes.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

And what were the so what were the the the early products? What was the what were you focusing on at the start?

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Well, it was quite an interesting sort of mistake. My focus at the very beginning was travel bags. Um I I brought some other things as well, like handbags and uh belts, but for me it was all about travel bags, and it was quite an interesting mistake because if you're an unknown brand, a travel bag, a leather travel bag is quite expensive, and people are not going to pay sort of 300 odd pounds. They might if they know you, who were my first customers, but unknown people who don't know the brand, who don't know the quality of the product are not going to spend 300 pounds straight off. So it was quite a sharp sort of horrifying mistake to make like, oh god, I'm not selling very many of these travel bags. Um but what did sell were the belts, and so in a way I sort of have reversed, I reversed, and now my travel bags are selling well, but it it it it because we're much more known as a brand, but it was the belts that did well from the big well, well, you know, that started the business moving.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

And it has built up from there, but I actually had to sort of recede back to much lower price points, start to build a name, start to build a brand and a reputation for quality and customer service, and then grow it up from there. So, yeah, I suppose quite interesting with hindsight.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

No, that's really fascinating because you've obviously gone in with wanting to produce something that you fell in love with in the first place, which were the bags, and you kind of use that as your inception point. But it's interesting to me as an outsider, listening to how consumers get confidence within a brand by maybe more accessible price points, and then think, well, we'll start with something smaller, like a belt, perhaps. And then after that, we know what the brand is like, we know how to deal with you, we know the quality is good, so then they can get the confidence to expand themselves within your port within your range. So, yeah, that's I think that's really interesting. And were there any I want to say, like language or cultural barriers? Because you're you're setting up something that's being produced over there, I presume, and the manufacturers are over there, but you're now back in the UK. So did you have anyone on ground zero over there that could maybe be the yeah?

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Well, I was visiting a lot, and um, I didn't speak any Spanish before I first went to Argentina, but by the end I had enough Spanish to speak to factories. Um, but yeah, I've got I still go back, I was last back a year ago, but colleagues have been since. Um I've got uh uh a young man in the team who has lived in Argentina himself for many years, and we've also got family connections with South with Argentina, so my children are half Argentine. Um, so there's a lot sort of go, there's a lot of links. Um my father-in-law was actually born in Argentina, although is is British. So um there's lots, lots of sort of reasons to be going back, but I've got you know, in terms of sort of man on the ground, no, but we have you know really strong relationships with the people we work with out there.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

So interesting. Do you think that would have been possible without those you know early relationships and and your and your family?

SPEAKER_00 7:19

Yeah, I think so, definitely. Um, because it you know, we we produce our packaging, for example, in China. Uh, I have actually been to China, but I haven't been to the factory where we produce the packaging, um, which is all and has always been plastic free. Um, but you know, it's a really good quality cardboard um box that people reuse for their pens, um, or or whatever. But um, yeah, so I I think it's easy, it's relevant, it's easier than people think to forge relationships with overseas suppliers. It I think a lot of people do see it as a barrier, but I've been kind of always a bit gung-ho about it. And yes, I've definitely got it wrong. But for for, you know, as long as it's more right than wrong, um, yeah, you get a bit wiser, I suppose, as as the years have gone. I mean, I've definitely got some things wrong.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Well, I mean, it was perhaps a little bit of a loaded question because my girlfriend and I, we went to Hoyan a few years ago now, and I don't know if you've been to that part of the world, but there's a one very long street that has about 400 odd tailors and seamstresses all the way down it, and it's UNESCO protected, and it's it's famous for the tailoring. And as we were getting some stuff made there, we thought, wow, the quality is really good, but there wasn't any online presence, you know. So we couldn't like have repeat orders once we got back to the UK. And so I started to reach out to some of the people over there and some of the tailors, and I thought, is there any way that you can digitize any of like your consumer base and make like an online store? So, you know, you could package this, and people that maybe come to Hoyan, they order their suit, but they don't have to wait around for a week or two to get it. You know, they can order it and then it can take as long as it wants, it can get and shipped to wherever you are in the world. I just found that the communication and the the intel, not having anybody there on the ground floor, as it were, or having a point man was just the huge obstacle. And I couldn't develop any trust or relationship with these tailors just by, even though I just bought like a few suits. So I just found that whole process of getting it off the ground. I think the idea was good, but just no no decent way to execute it.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Yeah, well, I I I suppose the advantage of um well working with people in Buenos Aires is it's very European anyway. So yes, I suppose that really the only barrier is the well, the few barriers, but um the the the there's a cultural barrier, but um the language is another, but international trade is not really one of them.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

I was gonna touch upon the products themselves. You have the the briefcases, like laptop sleeves, it's all on the website, by the way, which is pampiano.co.uk. We'll leave a link in the show notes and you can get a 10-pound gift.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Actually, it's just about to change. Sorry, it's just about to change to pampiano.com. We managed finally to buy the domain last year after 10 years of negotiation.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

Uh which doesn't which means we dipped in and out and just kind of said, no, we're not paying that. And then we come back four years later and then we said no, we're not paying that. And then we agreed something last year. So we finally managed to buy the domain.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

Okay, well, that's great. So pampiano.com, which is on its way. Um, yes. And I was gonna just ask you the difference between the quality of lever goods that you might see, you know, perhaps on market stalls around the world. Are you easy for someone like you? I'm imagining it's very easy to discern the quality, but maybe the layman that picks up a bag that is considerably cheaper, but doesn't know exactly what they're looking for in terms of quality. Perhaps you could highlight some of the differences on what makes the what makes Pampiano so good.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

Well, I think a really a really nice, easy one is if it's veg tanned, as in vegetable tanned leather, it's in my opinion, immediately nicer quality leather. Um, it has a smell that's rich, and you walk into our warehouse and people say, Oh, smell the leather. It's a lovely smell. I think you can buy candles with a leather smell. It's this veg tan leather that smells really, really good. And then the other thing about it is you can scratch it. So if you and then you can polish it away. If it's been chrome-dyed, as in with uh chemicals, it's you can't scratch it. And it sort of so if you imagine a really nice tanned, well, I've got a belt right here. If I if I where's it called belt, okay. I get an I get a you get a mark on it, like you might get a scuff mark on a pair of shoes. You can absolutely polish that away, and you'd never know there was a scratch on it. So that's a really nice way to see that this is a quality piece of leather that's been more expensively dyed with um, for example, bark of trees, so the vegetables, um, and it it gives it this real rich pattern colour um when it's in use. The colour may change slightly. Uh, for example, tan leather will go a much darker, richer colour um through use. Um, and it it it you could say it sort of ages, it wears well. So that's one thing about the leather. Um and a lot of uh if it if it's chrome dyed, it's got it doesn't have a sort of it's a very flat colour um and it it it just doesn't have its sort of luster. Uh it does somehow it just doesn't have the same sort of appeal. It's hard to, it's hard to describe, but the scratching and the smell is a great, is a great first point. Um we do have a lot of people copying our our pretty unique uh embroidery work, but I can spot uh the cheap uh the the significantly cheaper copies I like immediately. I I don't even need to go up to the person wearing it to know. And it that is actually to do with the thread, but the copies made cheaply in the Far East, they're using the wrong thread, and it means that the threads come loose and that you can tell immediately that is not a one of our South American belts. Um, it's someone who's made a copy, and it this copying is a problem because people will come in and buy the cheap one and have a bad experience because the thread comes loose or the leather stretches or whatever. But if they have they've had one of ours first or they hear from someone else, they do then come back to us and they say, I made, you know, I bought cheap ones, yours are the best. And you know, there's just no point. Ours will last for 10 years. And in fact, we do have people coming back with we used to have an old, a different logo. We had someone email earlier this week, oh, my the pin on my buckle has broken. Can you help? And we sent them a new buckle. Obviously, we needed to see a photo of the belt, but it was our old logo, which we got rid of in 2017. That particular design of belt we haven't had since 2016. So an eight-year-old belt, they were still wearing it. We replaced the buckle for them, no, just no, no quibble. Um, and and you know, our products really last. So people then go and go and, you know, they want different colours, so they'll have three, four, five of them built up over the years. And it's sort of my beloved belt, it's my wedding belt, my 21st belt. There's a people seem to have a sort of um a real affinity to this particular item, be it who gave them or what event they used it for, because it is more expensive, it is a quality product, um, but it lasts and it means something to a lot of our customers, actually. It's really great seeing what they write in our annual survey.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

That's fascinating. Do you find the the cheap alternatives, the the knockoffs, are they imitating your specific style with the labels on? Are they pretending to be you?

SPEAKER_00 15:04

They're not pretending to be you to be Pampano, but they are copying our products. So I will go to trade fairs and I will walk around and find manufacturers who have copied 10 of our products and they've got all 10 hanging up on their stand that are absolutely copied from our website. So we we do block certain countries on our website, but of course, they just need a VPN to get around it. But it's it's that that is infuriating, however, the quality is not there. So I just think with this, I mean, copying is meant to be flattery, isn't it? But it's not, it's plenty annoying. Um, so we just have to, we just, in my opinion, we just have to keep moving faster or fast to a really good quality product, and our reputation carries us forward. People will pay more for the one that is going to last. And it's the genuine article, you know. This is a handmade product made in South America with veg veg tan leather. It's got all the stamps to prove it, and we've become the the brand that is the sort of gifting brand for this product range, um, which is predominantly the belts. That is our key, our key, it's our hero product. And then we have all these product extensions like the dog collars that match if people like to match their dog or the the horse or or the the you know, for more maybe more the the more urban customer might buy the things you suggested, like the laptop sleeves or the or the uh messenger bag or the handbag and so on.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

Yeah, I I fell in love with the dog collars, by the way. So that's on the wish list for my cockapoo. Yeah, and I'd love to have like the matching one as well. So that's all that's on the wish list, most certainly. And and you mentioned the gifting there. Do you do any bespoke work as well? That we do, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

We've got on the website there's a what we call a bespoke belt builder, which we're just about to overhaul actually. But you can completely design your own belt on that. Um, it's a bit clunky. There's a new one that'll be going live in about four weeks. But yeah, customers love that, and they're asking us for the same, but for dogs and for horses. So once the software's been redone, they'll be able to do that. But then what the so that's for the individual. Um, but what we are doing increasingly is for schools, regiments, members, clubs, um, corporates is colours because uh because our products are so vibrant, we're doing it in the colours of the school. And in fact, there's one school where we've done it for every house in the school. So there's eight houses, and we've done it for each um and then alumni. So you might not wear a tie saying, oh, I'm a member of X Club, or I went to this school, but you you know, because people don't wear really wear ties very much anymore. But it used to show, oh, yes, I'm a member of the guards regiment, whichever regiment, or blues and royals or whatever. Um, but now we're producing regiments and the schools and uh clubs and corporates, so you can quietly say, show that your affinity or allegiance to the club, and someone else will know it who's also associated, but you're not sort of you've not got it blazoned emblazoned on your t-shirt. I went to ex-school or ex military. And that that's a really great part of the business, actually.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

Well, yeah, it must be quite exciting as well. Are you getting approached in particular by like clubs?

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Yeah, we do they're coming to do we exactly because we've got a bit of a reputation for doing it and doing a really, you know, we'll design, we'll send CADs to the customer um so they can see what it looks like before they buy it, um, and then they'll choose the design they like with their colours, um, and then we'll produce it for them. And uh so then it was sort of word of mouth is that's doing really well. We'll get a couple of inquiries a week actually on that.

SPEAKER_01 18:49

Wow. Well, is there anything at the moment that you're personally very excited by that is on the horizon?

SPEAKER_00 18:57

Yeah, we're um talking to a uh a restaurant, uh an Argentine restaurant chain about uh doing certain collaboration work. I I won't say their name, but probably wouldn't be too hard to guess. But anyway, a really fantastic Argentine restaurant brand um about doing collaboration with them um through the year. So it was a is just a perfect fit brand values and uh customer demographic and so on. So it's it's a very nice uh will be a really I'm really excited about that. We've also um earlier this year we we've hired a new MD who's got uh wealth of experience, and I think her skill set complements mine with both, you know, she's she's really strong in things I'm not so strong on. So I think for driving the business forward as a sort of female pair to drive this business forward, we're I think we'll be really well placed with her joining us too. So yeah, there's a lot going on.

SPEAKER_01 19:56

But I was gonna ask what your day-to-day job is within the company. I might I guess it's never the same, but is there like a normal day?

SPEAKER_00 20:04

Uh no, but I mean, obviously that's a good thing because yeah, it's not repeat, there's never repeats really. Um there isn't a normal day, it's it's so varied. But what are the bits I was thinking about what do I really enjoy about my day job? And I think it's the deal making, it's not even the money, it's just about yes, we got it, or or oh, I've seen this great product and we can produce it, something similar, or whatever. Uh I just I sort of love that bit of it. There's a real sort of, you know, I may meet a really you know customer we've worked with for a long time and then they agree to do something really different. I just sort of love that. And it, you know, it it doesn't really it don't I don't think it really translates to the finances around it. Um it's just about sort of a deal.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Yeah, getting something over the line and also someone else wanting to be a part of your journey as well.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

Yeah, exactly. It's great, and um, and I love going to visit the factories and the travel associated. Um, so that's another really fantastic part of it.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

So fantastic. Well, I was gonna ask what the future is. I mean, I know that we've got the new website, new restaurant. Uh is there any plans for more trade shows this year or bricks and more?

SPEAKER_00 21:19

Yeah, so we've done we're doing a lot in the US actually. Um, so this year we've done three trade fairs so far. And a trade fair is where you're selling to retailers. Um, so we did uh three in January, um, and we've uh secured a really big retailer in the US, and we I think there's huge opportunity for us out there. So a 300-do retailer is taking taking us on in August, and that could just sort of make the business go bang because they've got the volume. Uh, people we know people love the product, we just haven't until recently, until the last sort of year, I'd say post-COVID, we haven't really found our way through, but doing lots of trade fairs, building up a network of agents, um, we're starting to get a lot more traction over in the US. And I've got a young lady who looks after the US business who's she's really very, very good. Um, she's been driving the business forward out there. Um, so yeah, so I I think the the big opportunity for us is the US. Our wholesale business is really well set up, and our competitors in the US in it doing a similar product, not the same, but similar, uh, are not very well set up. So I think the opportunity is absolutely there, and uh, and we know that the American C consumer loves loves our product range.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

Well, why wouldn't they? Well, hopefully, if people in the UK can get to see the products, it's it's mainly online, but there'll be maybe some concessions around the corner.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

Well, well, we've got about 300 stockists around the world, so uh predominantly in the UK, probably 180 in the UK, 50 in Europe, and 50 in the US. So, yeah, there's loads of places people can find us.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Brilliant. And people can find the stockists on the website, which we'll link to again in the show notes. Jennifer, thanks so much for taking time out. Really interesting and love the product. So we'll um hopefully I'll be showing them off on my dog sometime soon. But in the meantime, all right.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

Well, I can send you one, Peter. Give me get you to give me a favorable photo or something, and I'll send you I'll send you a dog color.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

Oh, that's very sweet. Well, um, until next time, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

All right, thanks a lot.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

You've been listening to the Menswear Style podcast. Be sure to head over to menswearstyle.co.uk for more menswear.