SPEAKER_00 0:11

Well, it's my great pleasure to introduce Garay Kesman to the podcast. Garay is the founder of Kesman Mail Grooming. How are we doing today, Garay?

SPEAKER_01 0:21

I'm really well. Thank you for having me on your podcast channel.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Thank you. And so are you. How are you? I'm I'm going great, guns. Yeah. The the weather here in London has been pretty miserable these last few days, but we're just getting a tiny window into summer now. The sun's out. So that that's quite nice.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

That's great.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

And you are some uh whereabouts are you? Because you've got two stores, I know, two barbershops.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

We are we are uh Kes of Malgrim in Barber and Brands. Uh we have two stores, one in Farrington in the city, and one in Victoria.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Right. Okay. So where do you spend most of your time? Are you kind of darting between the two?

SPEAKER_01 0:56

I do, yeah. I spent a couple of days in Farrington because that's the first one. Uh is a bit more of a solid, it's been around for six years. Um, I spent a bit more time in Victoria. That's the new location that we set up about a year and a half ago. So I spent uh a bit more time uh here just to get it going and um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

It needs a little bit more oversight, just to TLC, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Yeah, yeah. So are you London-based as well?

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Yeah, yeah, I live in London. Uh, I was born in Turkey, came to London when I was 15. Uh, but yeah, I'm in London based now.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Right, okay. And so take me back. I see here that you've been in the trade for over 20 years. Uh where did where did it all did it start for you in Turkey and then you brought a skill here, or did you learn it grooming while you were here?

SPEAKER_01 1:44

No, I learned it grooming whilst I'm here. I came to London when I was 15. Uh, my first job was like a kitchen porter in the um in a restaurant, and very soon after I realized that industry wasn't for me. And then I uh went into uh my local barber shop that I used to get my hair cut, really. And um, he said, like, why don't you come and hang around in the in the shop, see how you like it? And I brought my friends into practice and their hair and stuff, and it turned out I had a skill for it, and I really enjoyed it. That's how it started, and yeah, and never looked back since, really.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Interesting. And so obviously you had a skill, you were a natural at it, but did you enjoy it? Is it something that you had like an enthusiasm for even back then?

SPEAKER_01 2:27

I loved it. I I felt like there was something different in there. So a lot of the barbers that I used to work with, they would just do the haircut and then people just go. Like they will show a picture, they'll cut their hair, and then they'll just go. There was nothing else to it. But what I realized was a lot of people were coming in to really uh make themselves feel better and more confident about themselves. Like the way they walked in and the way they walk out was so different. I realized a lot of these little details in the industry and in man, really. And I sort of fell in love with the consultation part of it and became obsessed with it, talking to people, understanding their struggles with hair and all, you know, everything about hair basically, just talking to them. Um that that became my niche, and then that slowly evolved to KSML grooming.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

Yeah. Okay, I've never really thought about it before, but I guess there are two sides and two skills that you have to have. You have to learn your craft, you have to be a good barber, you have to know what the products do, you have to know, I guess, everything between coarse hair, thin hair, but then there's the human element where you have to get on with the people that you're actually grooming because you know you're gonna be with them for the best part of an hour if it's gonna be a long cut or if it's gonna be a long dry or whatever. And if you don't have, I wouldn't say the gift of the gab, but if you didn't have interest in people, it I guess the whole thing would just fall flat. You would just, you know, you'd have a very long, long silence between you and your your customers. Did you realize at the time that you were you you had to have that dual skill set with people?

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Absolutely. I think connecting people is huge part of our industry. Like I worked with many, many amazing barbers, and they were giving some great haircuts, but energy was so off. So I think um people come and get a salaries in in every industry, we are people, and you need some people's skills to make people feel comfortable um on your chair so they can open and speak about their hair, go open and speak to you about them. It's almost like creating that safe space that they can actually speak. Um, so definitely, if you don't like people, this barbering job is not uh for anyone. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

I I mean, so I've worked behind countless bars and worked in pubs and everything. So you just realize that at the end of the day, you could be just in the pub on a quiet day with about two or three people and you'll be serving them, but then in between time, you're also having to keep them entertained, right? Because you know, they're in there for a reason, they're daytime drinkers, they haven't got too much else going on, maybe retired expats, but you know, your gig your job doesn't stop just when you pull the pint and hand it over. You know, you have to have a natural interest in people to kind of but can you teach that in terms of like when you have people, I guess, because you've been in the trade so long and you have people coming up from under you now and you train and teach others, I presume. Do you you can? Yeah, you can.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

You can. It's it's obviously when it comes naturally, it just gels a lot better and a lot easier. But um, we do trainings every month in both shops, and um is consultation and customer service training is one part of the training course where uh trying to make people feel comfortable because everyone's frequency is so different. You sometimes get people in a very low frequency. If you are 50 and they have zero, you need to try and come down to their frequency. Some people over 100. I you you may not always reach to that level of frequency, but you can try. I think um just being that um person that showing some interest and care and um creating some conversations around, making people feel feel comfortable. Um, you can train around that. You can but you need to learn, obviously. You need to really want to learn and you you need to understand that is a fact. If you don't feel like that is necessary and it it just doesn't work, but with my team that um they're great because they some some of them are like that. They're they like you you wouldn't get them talking naturally, right? But that sometimes is is a theater and um when you're working because you know your craft and you are almost like educating someone about their hair, about their face shape, about the type of hair they want. Because you know, we you you could probably imagine that we get people uh showing a picture of some completely different hair type, and this is what they want, and you need to really educate that person that this is not their hair type, and you can't have that haircut, you can you know have it similarly but different levels. Um, so you need that sort of human element to be able to explain um nicely, and you also have to be likable.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Right, yeah. I mean, just just staying on that kind of human element for a second, and I I really want to get into the grooming side, but I'm I'm very interested in the psychology of when you're one-on-one with your customer, and then I I so I also worked in tailor shops as well, and I knew that basically you had to be a very good listener, and you had to also watch the person when it comes to how they carry themselves, it's not just measuring them, it's how they kind of slope off. Do they have a drop shoulder, do they have a hollow back and all that their posture and things like that? But then also just listening to them. I mean, you could just hear all of their stories about their lives if you just you know stop talking and just let them run with it. But then I guess it might be different when you're in a barber because they want to ask you questions and they want to know about you. And then how do you kind of dodge certain hot button topics? I guess, like is politics off the table? I guess if someone gets into a conversation about that, it might be quite hard to swerve without you know picking the wrong side, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

Yeah, that's so so true. Uh, we do get into those sort of conversations sometimes that they they just put you in a spot where um you don't know who is sitting in the right next chair with another barber because you can hear everyone speaking, right? So you need to be really, really um and there's a lot of pair of scissors lying around as well.

SPEAKER_00 8:26

So you know you have to be careful.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're absolutely right. But we always trying to stay neutral without um we don't get involved with uh very strong opinions. Uh, we're trying to trying to keep neutral. Um we like if someone is saying something uh in a very strong uh manner, I would probably just try and change the subject uh to something else without making any comments on it. But um, you know, I think that that changes a lot about our clientele as well. So luckily our clientele is very um they're professionals, they care about their presence and um appearance and their image. So they're they're they're very well-mannered people. So we're quite lucky in that sense. We don't really um get that kind of clientele to very um harsh conversations that they don't care about their surroundings or anything. Obviously, as a service, we offer haircuts, patrims, shaves, um all sorts of uh grooming services, right? I think what puts us a bit more different than other barbershops is that we do it more on a personalized level. Right. We we get to know the client a little bit more, so um, we analyze their face shape, um, their lifestyle, do they have time in the mornings for the maintenance? Um, what kind of things they struggle with their hair? Um, those questions really bring out on gives you some sort of a direction of choosing a hairstyle that they can maintain. Um, so we are probably, I would say, the our strongest point is the consultation uh base that they will people will feel hurt and listen to. I think that's that's one of the biggest um things that are missing in our industry right now. That there's so many barbershops around, but you would just get in. You would probably just say, um, I don't know, too big in a size and short on the top, they will do that in 15 to 80 minutes and then you'll walk out. So there's no input in there, there's no professional input or a consultation at all. So for some people it's okay because they just want to get the hair off their head and it works. That's absolutely fine. But for the modern men that we serve, that they they want to know, they want to learn, um, they want to know how to maintain, they want easy styling tips, they want inspiration. Um, you know, they want a professional input that will help them day to day. That's what we become.

SPEAKER_00 10:59

That's interesting. Yeah, uh, because I remember when I had hair, going back a while, but I would go in and I had this absolute dynamite hairdresser. He was a good mate of mine, and then I would actually try and see him privately outside of his barber as well. But then, of course, I wouldn't be able to see him for about two months. So I have to kind of plan it as soon as I had my haircut, I had to book him in for another eight weeks ahead. Um, yeah, it was crazy. But he would just get it just right, like absolutely right, style it exactly how I want it to be styled, but I'd never be able to get it as good as he would style it because he would never tell me the secrets of what he's doing, right? And I never even thought to think right, just just tell me what products you're putting in, or I'd I maybe have an idea of the products, but how best can I get it to how you're doing it? Like, what what are the tools that I need? Maybe just give me another five-10 minutes and walk me through it. So you're saying this is something that we can get when we come and see you.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

Yeah, exactly. I think it's just like creating some sort of a routine for people because getting a haircut and hair styling in the shop that you can't maintain at home. It means nothing, literally nothing. Like if you wash your hair and you get home and you can't replicate that, uh, it's so difficult to style that back. I think is a fail. Um, we try to try to keep it as natural as possible that they can maintain it at home. Um I think it's very important that we also tell them, teach them about the products because some people have really dry, brittle hair. Um they they go on the wrong product, they'll use more sea salt spray, more powders to dry it out even more. And then they seem like, oh, my hair is really dry and really brittle. But you are literally making it worse with the products that you use. Uh, we teach them which products will add more moisture, make it look more healthier, and examples like that really help people.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Do you have a product range yourself, Garoy?

SPEAKER_01 12:50

I have not yet, uh, but we will do. Um, it's it's a tricky one because I don't want to just create a product the sake of um just putting my name on a product. I we I'm working on it. Uh it's definitely on the process, but I want I want to create something that will help people. Obviously, we speak to people all day, every day. We know what people struggle with. Um, every time trends change, obviously people start looking for a new product range to get that moisture in or the hold or um for that trend in hairstyle. So uh it can be quite um tricky to find the right product. But we know a lot of brands and we work with a lot of brands that we can suggest people that, but I am definitely working on um our own product range.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Well, as you don't have one out now, there'll be no conflict. Are there any brands that you can recommend, ones that you use perhaps every day that you have there in the shop?

SPEAKER_01 13:46

So I can I can of course tell you. We work with a brand called R Co. And um people through follow us on Instagram that probably will realize they can't get it at the moment. Um, the top seller is the Pomade Mousse that we've been using. It's incredible. So we've been part of the trend setting with this flow hairstyle. And then a lot late last year and this year, we were one of the trend setters on Instagram and TikTok. And obviously, we've been selling in the shop and also recommending people online. Now we can't get stock uh in that product because it's been sold out in the UK and our provider um manufacturer in um states that's struggling to get the products in, so we have no product to sell, as in in that Pomade Moose. So people need to stop buying it online, okay? Uh that's all that's what I'd like to say. But it's a great product. So um that I was really happy that everyone was sending DMs, like literally reining in and comments, what product, what product. Um, and I was helping people out, getting back to every single person, explaining what we did, how we did, and this product is great. But then, yeah, we run out of product ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Oh, I know. The name what's the name RMK? Did you say I just R R and Co.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

R and Co is a vegan, is a vegan product brand, is water-based. So, what we always aim for that we don't recommend people to wash their hair every single day with a shampoo because it strips over natural oils. So we always aim for water-based products rather than oil-based products. Oil-based is a really stronghold, but you need to shampoo out to get it out of your hair. But water-based will come out in under the shower with water. So then you are actually not making your hair really vulnerable, you're maintaining your natural oils that keeps your hair strong uh and safe.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Interesting. Well, I hope that brand RN Code reached out to you and said thanks. You've absolutely caused a great uptick in sales, but now we're all sold out.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

I'm I'm they don't they don't they don't like me at the moment because I'm giving them a hard time because we can't get the product. I want it quicker and they can't get any quicker. So uh but they're a great brand. They they they stand like you know, they're very environmental friendly and they care about their environment, and their products smell amazing. So um I I'm actually like promoting their brand.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

I know, I know. We're talking more about them we are than we are you. I'm sure they'll appreciate the the free plug. So, do you have any plans to open any more stores, Gorey? Or is uh is the where's the focus for the company now?

SPEAKER_01 16:26

So we we like growing, um, but you know, growing as a brand doesn't always mean opening um many, many stores. We so barbering for us is built around uh the culture and quality and consistency. So we we'd like to grow, maintaining and keeping that foundation strong at all times. So um we've been recognized by GQ uh six years in a row now in the best part of this category in London. That's helped us a lot, and uh and GQ is probably one of the best um credible magazines in the man's world. That's been amazing for us. Um we are growing. Um our plans uh this year was opening third branch in Dubai because the market uh really um appreciates the high-end um male grooming. Um obviously, with the current situation there, uh I put that on hold. Um, but I'm working on some exciting projects um that we are working on um AI software app for our clients and people in the UK that they can have initial consultation before they sit on the barber's chair. So that's gonna be very, very interesting. Um, coders are working on it. We are in the early stages, but I'm very, very excited about that.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Wow. Well, so it's all happening. We've got the product range bubbling away in the background, a new app, and of course, people can still come and see you in two of the stores, Victoria and Clerkenwell. I've got here is that right?

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Farrington, Farrington, yeah, near Clerkenwell.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Yeah, nice. Well, we'll we'll leave links to the stores in in the show description. Kesmangrooming.com is the place where you can get all the information. It's actually quite a cool little website. I do like a good website. I don't know why. Yeah, 100%. It needs to be easy to use, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Yeah, um, they can they can book in very easy. Also, we have our own app. They can download Kesman Mel Grooming app. Um, yeah, we also have a lot of uh inspiration on social media, uh, especially on Instagram. We post almost daily with trending hairstyles and inspiring people with moving forward with for the summer, uh, styling tips, um, and all that stuff that uh they can follow us on Instagram.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Also, just like the pricing is I know this is gonna sound really asinine, but the pricing is so clear. You have everything on the home page, like the the beard and trim, buzz cut, signature throat safe, everything is literally written out. You can't miss it. It's it's it's well done. Yeah, well done.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

I do like a gameplay. Do you have an actual magazine? Because there's like a click here to read the magazine, or is that the online version?

SPEAKER_01 19:14

We do actually, we do. We do this an online version, but we also have our magazine. Uh, we are getting the next edition collection in June, and hopefully, we our magazine should be out late summer.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

How often do you release magazines?

SPEAKER_01 19:28

Is it once not very not very often? Um, we do a lot of like collections and stuff, but the magazine itself takes. I'm a one-man band, so yeah, um, I I do quite a lot of that myself. Um, obviously, I have a great team around me, they're really um inspirational and they like to grow, so um, they always want to take part on doing things. But doing a magazine in InDesign um program took me three months myself. So uh I've done it all myself, and um I also about now this time I'm gonna get professionals to get involved. I'm just gonna pass all the content over to them and they're gonna put it together, so they should be a lot quicker. Yeah, but this is going to be our second magazine.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

It's all on the website, kesmangrooming.com. Well done, congrats! Well done, Groy. Thank you. Sorry, I was just I was just uh preoccupied going through your website. No, it's absolutely fine. Well, come back on when we have the the new app, the AI tool, and uh some products to talk about. I'd love to have you back on to talk about those.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

Yeah, I'd love to. I would love to talk about. We are here to help man feeling confident, you know. Um we we love helping people, we love people, like we love solving problems. Most of our clientele coming through seeing our articles in GQ and stuff where they um they have problems, problematic hair, and we solve the problem. And I have clients over 15, 16 years that they've seen me grow as a person, as a businessman, as a barber, and I've seen their life journey myself. That's what I love about this job where you connect with people, you build relationships and you help each other. It's almost like therapy, um, because you create a safe space for them to talk about their life and whatnot, and you help them uh make themselves feel better and feel good confidence and um have a great image.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

Thank you, Gorey. Well, uh, I'll let you go, crack on with your weekend and uh hopefully speak to you soon.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

That's great. Thank you so much for um having me.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

Thank you, a pleasure. You've been listening to the Menswear Style podcast. Be sure to head over to menswearstyle.co.uk for more menswear content and email info at menswearstyle.co.uk if you would like to be a future guest on the show. Finally, please help support the show by leaving a review on iTunes or wherever you're listening to this podcast. Until next time.