Menswear Style Podcast
The Menswear Style Podcast is a leading men’s fashion and menswear podcast exploring men’s style, clothing, grooming, lifestyle and the business behind some of the world’s most exciting fashion brands. Hosted by Peter Brooker, each episode features conversations with menswear designers, fashion entrepreneurs, innovative brand founders and industry experts from across the global fashion and apparel industry. Discover the stories behind established and emerging clothing brands, from the first idea and challenges of launching a fashion start-up to building a successful international business. Guests share their experiences and insights across fashion design, sustainability, manufacturing, marketing, branding, eCommerce, retail, social media and business growth. Whether you’re interested in men’s fashion and style, discovering new menswear brands, starting your own clothing label, or learning how successful fashion businesses are built, the Menswear Style Podcast takes you behind the scenes of the modern menswear industry. New conversations with the people shaping the future of menswear, men’s style and fashion.
Menswear Style Podcast
Richard Marshall, Founder of Pall Mall Barbers / London Barber Shop
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In this episode of the MenswearStyle Podcast, we sit down with Richard Marshall MBE, Founder of Pall Mall Barbers, to explore an extraordinary journey from sweeping the floor of a barbershop at the age of 12 to building one of London’s most recognised barbering businesses.
Richard talks openly about growing up dyslexic, being asked to leave school at 15 without qualifications, and discovering that his strengths lay not in conventional education, but in learning through experience, intuition and doing. His story is a fascinating insight into how perceived limitations can ultimately shape an entrepreneurial mindset built around problem-solving, resilience and finding a different way forward.
We also hear how Richard acquired Pall Mall Barbers in 2005, initially unaware of its remarkable history. After discovering an old business card beneath the floorboards, he began researching the company and traced its roots back to 1896. What started as a run-down barbershop became the foundation for a brand now known for its heritage, craftsmanship and modern approach to men’s grooming.
One of the most fascinating parts of Richard’s story is how a childhood fascination with the film Trading Places helped inspire his ambition to open a business in New York. Following the disruption caused by Brexit to his international distribution plans, a trade show brought Richard back to New York, where a chance walk through Rockefeller Center led him to spot an opportunity for a Pall Mall Barbers location. Today, that dream has become reality.
We discuss the differences between British and American customers, why international businesses need to adapt to local markets, and how Pall Mall Barbers recreated the atmosphere of its London stores at Rockefeller Center while retaining its distinctive British identity.
Richard also shares his approach to scaling a service business without losing its soul. Rather than controlling every detail, he believes in empowering people, mentoring them and giving them the freedom and environment to become the best version of themselves. It is an approach that has helped him grow the business while developing the people around him.
Finally, Richard talks about his plans to give back through mentoring and the challenge of writing his first book — something particularly meaningful given his lifelong struggles with reading and writing.
From barbering and entrepreneurship to international expansion, British heritage, dyslexia, leadership and the power of dreaming big, this is an honest and inspiring conversation with one of the leading figures in modern British barbering.
Listen to the MenswearStyle Podcast with Richard Marshall MBE, Founder of Pall Mall Barbers.
Well, it's my great pleasure to introduce Richard Marshall to the show. Richard is the CEO of Power Mow Barbers. How are we doing today, Richard?
SPEAKER_01I'm amazing. Thank you, Peter. Uh fantastic morning. Like nice and warm and sunny and sunny Wolvermstone.
SPEAKER_00Excellent, great. Well, listen, I'm I'm keen to get into your story, Richard, because I've been given a brief history of the business, a brief history of you, but I think for some reason you're going to give a more eloquent description than what I've got written down. So uh just just a quick thumbnail picture of you, please, Richard, where you are now and and and what where you are in the business.
SPEAKER_01Right. So so originally I'm a barber by trade. You know, I I started barbering, sweeping the floor when I was 12, you know, um, making the teas in a barber shop, and um and I kind of fell in love with it. And through school, um I I was dyslexic, um, and and I still am today. So I didn't read and write uh particularly that well. Um and some people challenge when I say I don't read and write at all, um, people sort of challenge that and they're like, they can't believe it. Even Chat GPT the other day was questioning like, is that possible? And uh up until my 40s, um, I you know, when I started my business, I was struggling, and I was probably still struggle to write a check today. Um, the other day I wrote some uh notes on uh I was doing an interview and I wrote some notes and I looked at my handwriting and I couldn't understand my own handwriting. So, you know, people don't really understand what it means to be dyslexic, but I I I was someone what got kicked out of school um when I was 15. Um I got no grades, no um, you know, sort of I didn't come from a silver spoon background, but I come from a family with lots of love. Um, you know, to give you sort of a uh, you know, homage to my my parents and so on, because they did give me a lot of love and I'm um brothers and sisters and so on. But the um the the reality is is I I learned to be a barber. Um you know, I started cutting hair when I was about 15. I'm visual kinesthetic, so I I can look at something and I can feel it and I really feel stuff, but I don't learn through textbooks. So, you know, like normal conventional learning, which took me many years to actually work out my learning style and and how I learn. But being an entrepreneur, one of the things, one of the key things is actually when you do stuff and you're doing it and getting sticking points and learning it and you get problems all the time, what happens is you just learn how to overcome your obstacles, like my major one of not being able to read and write a contract or whatever, you're constantly having to work out how to get around uh a, you know, like how to fill out a form or whatever. So you're perfectly trained to actually become a problem solver because you've dealt with this, which now I believe is a disability all my life. Um, which most people just, oh, can you fill this out? Can you do this application? Can you, oh, just read this, can you do that? But because it's not visible and people don't see it, they when you say, Oh, I don't read it, they don't believe it. You know, it's kind of like what? Um, so on. So yeah, today it's a very different. Um, I've had an amazing journey. Um, right up, I built a business um through barbering. I was barbering and then went into entrepreneurship, went into business owner um for for Palma Barbers, and then I I went on a tear for about 10 years and opened a load of barber shops across London, um, and and eventually into New York City at the Rockefeller Center, uh, which was a dream I had from when I was a child. It was from trading places of all things as a kid, watching a film and seeing the skyline, and I fell in love with it. And um, I always had this ambition to go to New York. And when I went to New York, I fell in love with it, and I thought actually, I would love to open a business here, and that's how the dream started.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, trading places is one of the best Wall Street films. I don't and I think because I I watched it early on, and they had a lot of stuff bleeded out on the TV because there'll be there'd be some hot language in the film and and whatnot. And you only really if you come back to that film nowadays, if you've watched it when you're young, you probably have a real different take on that film, and it'll be a lot funnier in places. It's it's a really good watch. I recommend Trading Places. Probably one of the best Eddie Murphy films, I'd say.
SPEAKER_01Oh, a hundred percent. And and one of the things is I remember it because I'm like I say, I'm kinesthetic, right? So I feel a lot, right? Probably feel intuitively feel more than ever. So I would feel humor. So these these like films back in the day, they had a real impact on me because I didn't only watch them, I felt them. And um, and when I saw the skyline, I think it's the end shot or the start shot or something, I I can visualize it now. And they're sitting on across uh in Brooklyn looking over at Manhattan and the skyline, and that was ingrained in me for years. Like I have to see that. And um, and it's funny enough. First time I went to New York, I stayed in Battery Park, which is right at the south part of Manhattan, and I stayed right around the corner from that that image. I I believe it was that image. I may be wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong. Um, but it was um, you know, this was uh 40 years ago. Um and um, you know, that was uh what I remember.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I so I remember the two old men in that film, and when the brother realizes that they've lost all their money, he keels to the floor, and the other guy goes, Mortimer, we need to get your brother to a hospital, he's having a heart attack. When you're a kid, they would then cut the next line, which would be then, oh no, FM. It's just the way he says it as he's dying on the floor there. It's ruthless. We could do another episode on um on trading places, Richard. Maybe maybe we'll have to do a follow-up call.
SPEAKER_01Or maybe we can trade places. I can do an innovate on you, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00We're a dollar. Yeah, I'll I'll play the Eddie Murphy and you do the Dan Ackwood. That's good. How did you how did you even start about getting into the Rockefellers? What kind of angle did you have? What was the approach and how did that come about?
SPEAKER_01Well, if I say it was serendipity, right? So, and and and I'm writing a book at the moment, and and and I've I've been writing it for a while, and it's my story and my journey. And so a lot of people really embrace when I've said parts of my story, a lot of people who engaged with it and found it, you know, whatever, inspirational or uplifting or whatever. And this is one of them stories of about dreaming big, you know, just having a dream and working towards your dream. Having your dream is a direction, you know, to work towards. And um it to start off with, it happened um in Brit Exit. So BritExit happened, and I was um launching my products, um, my men's grooming products, um, and and I was working in Spain and Europe and so on, and I had a lot of distribution deals which we were working on, and they were quite sizable at the time, and they were really good stepping stones. And then I got a phone call from um uh from uh, well, Brit Exit happened, and the next day I had a list of phone calls and emails of everyone cancelling everything we'd been working on for a number of years, and it was um, you know, a really big sort of like, oh, what am I gonna do now? Do you know what I mean? It was very stressful at the time, it wasn't very nice. And um, and basically what happened was I I made a phone call to a distributor in the US and um and I had a chat, and she said, Look, do you want to come out to a trade show in New York? Um and um see what happens. And I was like, Yeah, let's let's do that. So, you know, about a month later, or or whatever it was, I went to New York to this trade show. And then before I knew it, I I we we had a really good trade show. It was amazing, met some loads of really good people. And then basically I went for a walk at lunchtime, um, you know, at the end of the show, and I ended up at the Rockefeller Center. And uh basically what happened was I was just walking along, you know, it was kind of an unconscious thing. It wasn't like, oh, I'm my direction was the Rockefeller Center, it was like I'm just walking, enjoying the zigzagging, enjoying the sun off the buildings. It was a warm day. And I ended up at the Rockefeller Center and I walked down onto the concourse, and there was a shoe shine store, and it was called Eddie's. And um, and I knew Hugo, shouts out to Hugo, and uh basically what happened was that I um there was just a load of men in suits and dapper, slick back hair, you know, New York slickers, like from trading places back in the day with suits on and stuff like that. And and and it was out the door, and it was all these people, and I was like, wow! And my first thought would you know that a barber shop here would be amazing. And and next door they had an empty store, it was just vacation with uh details of up for leasing. Um, so I've got one of my team to make a call, and the next day I met the landlords, and that's how it all began.
SPEAKER_00Interesting. So like from there what I'm I'm curious to know what works from a British point of view, what translates to the American audience and what doesn't, you know, what is there anything that's lost in communication between you and the client, um, between the British and the American audience?
SPEAKER_01Well, I I think every when you go into international markets, uh you know, I've got my MBE, right, uh in the in the New York Honors list this year. And part of that is for international trade. And so I spent a lot of time, like through, you know, 10 years or more, working on international trade and going to trade shows and going to new markets and going to, you know, all over the world, right? And one thing you learn, uh, or one thing I've learned, is that you need to localize everything. You know, it's called product market fit. And you have to understand the market to then get a product to fit into that market. You know, a lot of people think, oh, I'll develop a product or I'll develop a service and push it into that market and see if it works or it doesn't. That's one way of doing it, but there's another way, um, which is much more intuitive on data, on experience, and so on. And you get to know the market and then you see how you can adapt your product or service or whatever to fit that market. And that's the the more um clever way of doing it. Some things, um, I guess it doesn't apply to everything, but I think if if you're in some businesses, you may be able to do that. But I think there's always a little bit of adjustment, even if it's in language. One of the big things I had when I started going to America, and we I still have it today, that the language is very similar, but it's also very different. It's more similar than different, but it's very different as well. Like you the people who explain stuff to you and you think, have I understood that right? Um, and so on. And you realize um the American English is much more pacific.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Then English is much more poetic and a bit more um you know, uh flamboyant and so on. It's a bit more uh beautified, so to speak. In American, they they talk in very, very much details and they shorten words and so on and so forth. That's in my experience.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. We have words like faff. Americans don't know what the word faff is.
SPEAKER_01Well, I had one which is really funny, and um and I would turn around to people and I would say, Oh, can you tell me where the lift is?
SPEAKER_00Oh, the lift, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And and and and they were like, It's not a building site, yeah. Well they would imagine a lift is a is a is a uh hydraulic lift or something, yeah, yeah, or a scissor lift. Yeah, exactly. Gone.
SPEAKER_00I was gonna say, well, they they've not seen the world is not enough because Bond explains, oh, you need to take next time take the elevator, right? And uh every every Englishman in the cinema would just go, God, they would bury their head in their hands, like no no no, James Bond shouldn't be saying elevator, it's lift for Christ. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_00That's funny. So okay, so you have so I'm still trying to really just get to get to the bottom of what you're what you're now doing in the US that is different and why because I know like when Americans really appreciate the history, like especially when they come to London, they want to see all of the history and and and everything can go to Stonehenge. It's a bit of a cliche that we have the history and they don't, which is not necessarily true in some places, but you know, I mean, by and large. So I I guess the lure of having a business that is uh as old as yours, uh what does it go back to 1895 originally? Was it am I am I close to 1896? So that there must be a lure in that sense that they're you know they're getting something that's quite historical and you know quite English in a way. Is that is that part of the appeal or is there or is there more beyond that?
SPEAKER_01Well, I I I I think it's funny because when we originally opened up, right, and this is where you you understand a bit more about brands. When we opened up, we we done a little bit of marketing beforehand, right? Just to market the location, and it took us ages to get the store going. And by the time we opened it, I remember on the first day standing there very nervously, and um, and it was really difficult to do. And um, it was probably one of the most hardest things I've had to do in business, right? And um for lots of different reasons. And when I stood there, I remember sort of standing there, and the days what we opened, beginning days, we just had lots of people come to see us. Oh, I used to go in London, da-da-da. I used to go here, I used to this person used to cut my hair, da-da-da-da-da-da. And and what happened was you realize that actually London and New York are very like brother and sister, and a lot of the companies, people travel back and forward. Oh, I used to get my hair cut in London and da-da-da. So there was a lot of that type of brand exposure, more than I could ever imagine, actually. Um, you know, people coming in what have moved to America or moved to New York and used to come into our stores years ago and so on. And and we still have that today. Um, a lot of the clients used to come in that way. Now, as far as the history goes, on the wall we have um uh an old photo of um of the Palma Toilet Saloon, which was its original name. And um, and and basically, I when I brought the business, I didn't know any of this in 2005. I actually found an old business card. It was a very dilapidated store at the time and very run down. And when I brought it, I fell in love with it. And and then I found an old business card, which is down the floorboards, and it was called originally called the Palmall Toilet Saloon. And it on the card it said established over 50 years. And I thought, oh wow, but the card looked 50 years old, right? It wasn't new. And then um, and then basically I had a mentor at the time and I traced it back to 1896, and then on research, I realized I just brought one of the oldest barbershops in the world. So, therefore, what happened is I started then to build the brand and the business around that, and and that's really one of our USPs. Because if you go into our New York store, you'll notice the barbershop location looks like the original store in in Trafalgar Square. It's got oak panels, it's got white tiles, it's got beautiful taps, it's got you know old photos of, you know, and new photos and so on. Um, and um is it's just it's a beautiful, beautiful store. And it looks like the the stores in London. And I think that aesthetics helps with the um overall environment of the barbershop and barbershop experience. Um and I wanted it to be um a much more like classic natural barbershop feel rather than a forced feel of of something unnatural. Do you know what I mean? A real banter, you know, natural people like barbers being themselves and and and and and so on and so forth. And and that's really what we have in New York, you know, that's that's how it feels, and um and and they that that's the way it works. Interesting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because I I often find like what what Americans expect when they come to the UK and what they might expect when they come into your shop with a history that goes back that far would be to have this kind of regal aesthetic, you know, something very royal, very tailored, you know, um very well healed, shall we say. You know, my my wife often says when she came here from America, she thought everyone would be like from Sherlock Holmes. You know, she thought like everybody would be talking really proper, and I'll go, well, actually they kind of just talk like us. You know, you go to you know, you go to any kind of British pub, it's you know it's typically these sort of guys, like everyday guys, rather than you know, the people that you might see going up and down uh Chelsea Street, King Street, whatnot. It's it's and then they have to make that leap. They have to go, well, this is not what I expected, and now I have to kind of adjust myself to what this is. So I I'm wondering if there's any of that disconnect when people come into your into your shop in America either.
SPEAKER_01Well, I I you know, to be honest with you, I think like you know, in terms of Regal and Royal, we have got a photo of Prince William um with me walking into one of our stores um back in 2019, um uh on Valentine's Day doing an event around men's mental health in our our Pal Mau barber's Paddington. And um, and that was a very special moment, you know, in our our history. Because originally Pal Mall, like people think in America they think it's a cigarette, right? Oh, it's Pal Mau cigarettes or something, right? And and people have actually said it online, oh you you're copying a cigarette brand and so on. But they don't really know the history of Pal Mau because actually the cigarette brand come much later, it's actually much older than what um much younger than what Pal Mau Barbers is, as I believe, right? I'm not sure the exact dates, but I think it's the way I researched it. I think Pal Mau Barbers is actually 1896, and the cigarette brand come after that, right? But I would have to do a bit more research. But originally what happened is um Pau Mau is is used to be a royal game, so it's very regal. So it was played uh Palais Malay, and it was played in the Mao. Um, and that's where the Mao comes from. And they would play the Kings and Queens, and and it was like croquet and cross between like golf and so on, and it was a long, like you hit a ball quite a long way, and uh and basically, and and what would happen after the games, they shop um sellers would come around the mall to sell their goods, and that's the way where the word shopping mall comes from. So, and then London started to have malls where they would have long things and then have shops by the side, and and it was like classic innovation. So when we sort of go back to the original Pal Mao and then Pal Mao become a street and it became uh uh gentlemen's clubs, which now that means something else, it doesn't mean sort of like um you know things have changed, yeah. Um, but gentlemen's clubs were very sort of um aristocracy and older kind of you know members' clubs of all different like interests of cars to politics or or or business or or whatever, and um and that's where the word put PAO Mao comes from. So when you educate people on that the where it comes from, it actually conjures up this amazing sort of thing in your mind, right? Rather than oh, what does it actually mean?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. See, I I think my first encounter with PAO Mau would have been on the Monopoly board. I'm sure there was always a card that sent you to PAO Mau. I was like, oh, I'm off to Pal Mau again, it would always seem so exotic. And so is Pal Mau cigarettes still going? I I don't know.
SPEAKER_01I I I think they may be. I don't I don't know.
SPEAKER_00I don't hear very much anymore.
SPEAKER_01No, I I don't know if they are or they're not. I just know that when we done the research and we were looking into PAO Mall and we were learning about it, and you type in Pal Mau, you do see cigarettes, and yeah, and and and and I did look at the dates and I remember looking at it and Monopoly as well, is that's how I remember it. Um, but that would have come much later as well. I'm Not 100% sure on that, but I would say that I think the game came you know within the last like hundred years. Do you know what I mean? I I I don't know, but I would imagine that was more modern. But I do remember playing uh Monopoly and going to Pal Mau and Regent Street, and then my original location strategy was was looking at them locations and thinking actually I want to have stores in these Monopoly board locations.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I need a couple of houses on uh Regent Street, then I'll buy up the stations and and take out free parking, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I'm a bit of an entrepreneur, but I never got to that level. Um, but I would have liked to, I would have liked to have uh, you know, 30 or 40 years ago started buying up some uh Regent Street and uh you know a bit of Pau Mau, but obviously that that wasn't uh in my uh lifespan.
SPEAKER_00Did you ever like when you played Penop Monopoly? So did you ever when you had a fine put it under free parking? And then whoever would land on that would just get all the wedge that would be under the the free parking.
SPEAKER_01You know, I I can't remember. I can't remember. I know I used to play it, and I know I used to have a lot of fun. I know we used to do stuff like that and and so on, but I I remember sort of like probably we, you know, people would do all sorts of stuff and make up rules as they went along.
SPEAKER_00So this is this is a made-up rule, and I think it determines how if you're a fun family or a boring family, because I play it in my family. Each time you get fined, you like you know, pay 200 to the bank or whatever, you're like, son of a gun, and you'd have to put it under you'd put it under free parking with the chance that you might land on it again and then you'd get all this money back. I remember going to my friend's neighbor's house, and I was like, Oh, I'll just put the fine under free parking. They go, No, no, no, that just goes back into the bank. Oh, fairly hair. It's like sucking all the fun out of the game monopoly. Anyway, um I digress, sorry, Richard. Like I I'm conscious I don't have much time with you either. We're we're coming down to the last five minutes, but I I did what I just did want to ask about like the how do you scale from this point, like what the chair-by-chair business without losing what people come into the shop for, and like also you you feel like you're or to me, you seem like the the real presence and the and the bones of the business is you. How do you get to delegate with all of the other shops and the outlets? How do you kind of synthesize you and put you into all of these businesses as well?
SPEAKER_01Well, is it it's a fantastic question, and and and I think it you know, and I I want to give a good answer, I want to end on a good answer, right? And something fought for and meaningful, right? And and I think traditional bosses or traditional business owners, it's all about control, right? It's all about control. And people want to control everything and details and everything else. And and I learned very, very early on in my business career, um, and and also before I was a business owner, when I was working for people, right? The the when people control you, um it they don't I didn't like it. I don't like being told what to do or managed or or being, you know, um, you know, and I had bosses over the years and stuff like that, which I just didn't really like it, right? And so what I realized, and this was a development, the the difference is is about empowering, is empowering people to do good, to want to do better, mentoring, you know, helping them get the best out of themselves and actually facilitating and giving a platform so they can grow and develop themselves and be the best version of them themselves. And and I think when you do that, it's a mindset shift. And what happens is some people, you know, they they want to do their own thing, you know, and you let them get on with it, and you're like, you know, so on. And I think that's really the key. That was my secret source. And I learned that really early on, um, you know, about empowering people to go out and and and do better. Do you know what I mean? And and giving them the facilities and the environment where they can take control of their own destiny and their own goals. And I think that was one of the key aspects to developing and and and how I've I've I've grown a business, because then people are more motivated because it's on them. It's not you're not trying to get more out of people like conventional bosses, and you you're pushing people to do more, it's on the individual to want to succeed if they want to succeed, and it's down to them to do that. And I think that's really uh a very valuable um you know entrepreneurial lesson, um, and uh so on and so forth. And I think going forward, like for me personally, like when I'm launching, I've being dyslexic and not read and writing, building, writing a book has been one of the biggest challenges of my life, right? And it's taken me a long time and a lot of years. And and really, but the future, really, for me as well, is that mentoring part is actually wanting to give back, but not just one-to-one. I've done a lot of that and I've helped a lot of people in mentoring and so on. But I want to scale that and try and reach as many people as possible, um, and and and inspire as many people as possible. That's really my purpose in life. It's not always about success, because if I would have just sat in an office all my life and and wanted to work and you know, grind and do all of that, um, I would have probably been a lot more successful. But I tell you what, doing it the way I've done, I'm so much more happier. Do you know what I mean? I'm I'm so happy with the way things have turned out. And and when people turn around to me and say, actually, do you know what you've really helped me? Sometimes they don't do it automatically there and then. They'll come back to you much later. And and that's a real win for me. I think that's uh something what really motivates me to do more of.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's a win and a good note to go out on. Richard, thank you for your time. Uh Pow Mal Barbers. We'll leave all the links and uh the show notes over on the website so people can find you. Uh are you on Instagram at all? We'll be able to look you up there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, I've just uh launched my new Instagram account, which is uh RichardMarshall MBE. Uh that's a new one which I'm I'm getting ready for my uh new book launch. So I'm starting it fresh. So any follows or comments, that would be great. And also on LinkedIn, uh Richard Marshall MBE, um uh Pal Mal Barbers, and you'll find me. Um more than happy to connect and uh chat going forward. And uh hopefully I can get you to read my book as well.
SPEAKER_00Well, listen, come back on the show anytime and good luck with the book. We'd love to talk about the book if we can get a if we can get a copy. Well, I'll I'll buy it when it comes out and then we can talk about it then. Hopefully, there's a chapter on trading places and we can we can go through that in a bit more depth.
SPEAKER_01It's is definitely in trading places, and there's a few other things as well.
SPEAKER_00Nice, all right. I look forward to that. Brilliant. Richard, thanks again for your time. You've been listening to the Menswear Style podcast. Be sure to head over to menswearstyle.co.uk for more menswear content and email info at menswearstyle.co.uk if you would like to be a future guest on the show. Finally, please help support the show by leaving a review on iTunes or wherever you're listening to this podcast. Until next time.
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