SPEAKER_00 0:12

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Men's Wear Style Podcast with me, your host, Pete Brooker. In this episode, we're going to be talking to Professor Marco Crisky from Polymoda. So to set the table, last month Men's Wear Style attended the Masio Forum in Florence during the Piti Huermo Fashion Fair. Here we met Professor Marco Crisky from Polymoda who moderated a roundtable discussion titled E-Commerce or Die where industry experts shared their valuable insights. Now I'm recording this post-interview and I have to say this was one of the most educational interviews I've done for a long time. Marco is a man with a welter of knowledge in the e-commerce field, and just before I got him on the phone, I thought I would do a little bit of quiet digging and pulled up his LinkedIn page. His bio reads as thus retail results a fashion and luxury professional with 20 plus years, a proven successful track record across the fashion apparel, retail, sporting goods, luxury hotels, beauty and cosmetics industries, ability in refocusing retail business on increasingly challenging scenarios by innovating store formats and driving sales and profitability to new levels, a proven expertise in strategic planning and positioning sales management and new business development. Experienced leader, deeply educated in fashion and retailing across speciality, luxury and concept store formats, collaborative, visionary, skilled team builder and team leader, committed to excellence in a competitive, multicultural, fast-paced environment. Holy heck. Well that's the kind of buyer you'd read and just hire the man on the spot. We'll play the interview soon. But before we do all that, check us out online at www.menswearstyle.co.uk for all your latest fashion news, reviews, and features. Follow us on the social at menswear style and download the Menswear Style app from the app store so you can stay in the circle of trust. The podcast is available on SoundCloud and the iTunes Store. If you're not already subscribed, you can simply punch in the menswear style title in the search bar and will appear. Lastly, if you would like to get in touch with the show, you can email us at info at menswearstyle.co.uk. Okay. Here is that interview with Professor Marco Kalisky. Professor Marco Kaluski, welcome to the podcast. We saw you moderate the round table at the Priti Fuermo Fair. Could you just give us a little bit of backdrop to who you are and talk to us a little bit about the discussion entitled E-Commerce or Die?

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Yeah, well, the opportunity was to have that round table and that meeting during the Mansfrew trade fair in Florence, that is Pitti Womo, in January. And so it was also a great opportunity to live the very moment of companies facing each other, confronting to each other, and sharing also knowledge within other remarkable professionals like uh people from Spain, from UK, from Italy, and who gave their own contributions to what they feel as an opportunity or a threat, the presence of e-commerce and digital in general. And so it was a great experience. A great experience, and uh audience also was extremely pleased of the conclusions and the contributions that we that they all made to that conference.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

I don't know now if it's the same that's going on in Florence, but we're seeing a very gradual decline in high street stores over here in the UK. Um, can you just paint the picture for us what's happening elsewhere outside of the UK?

SPEAKER_01 3:54

Well, uh UK is not a case apart because the worldwide is now facing very, very seriously uh something that in the past decades was considered as normal, but today is not normal anymore. People are getting more and more, if I can say bored, of the same offers, of the same retail formats, of the same things almost everywhere in the world. So what you see in UK is not an exception for the rest of the world. The main concern is to become attractive again to the attention of the customers. And uh this is a challenge of tomorrow and the next years.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

So what you're saying is that it's not an isolated case. We're not living in a bubble here in London that it's an endemic, that it's happening everywhere. I mean, I know in America, for example, you're seeing the closing of a lot of very traditional stores, stores that have had lots of heritage out there. Um I mean, even the jewelry brand Henry Bendel's gone down, they've had over a hundred years of high street enjoyment. Um so I know it's not local to London, but what would you say are the main catalysts and the main things that are pushing this huge decline that we're seeing now?

SPEAKER_01 5:05

Well, I can say a couple of things. Um first of all, that the problem is general. It's not just a local problem with UK and with London in specific. And when you mention in other states, uh uh immediately as soon as we mention in other states, we think of New York and we think of other few hubs that are relevant for the shopping experience. But they all more or less are facing the same problems overexposure. The problem is overexposure, uh an abnormal amount of investment in bricks and mortar that the market is not accepting anymore. And when I say market, I say consumers.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

How do stores, and I mean, this is probably the question that is you get asked all the time now, how do stores and bricks and mortar combat the growth of online sales encroaching on their profit margins?

SPEAKER_01 5:54

As I always say in class, uh the online is not an enemy to DeFi, it is a friend. Online is technology, and saying that e-commerce is an enemy to bricks and mortars is like saying that the CDs or the Lionel records could have been enemies to music, is simply a different approach to consumerism, is simply a different approach to purchase. Today we can't ignore that people watch TV, that people uh watch uh mobile phones, and people have a different approach to uh gather information about products. That is not just the traditional role of the sales associates, how can I help you and things. Is uh hundred percent of things that today we do in stores is somehow influenced by things we do online. So this is the point. We don't have to consider the online as a threat, as an enemy, but an ally, uh uh a friend, something that we have to find a way to exploit.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

It's a little bit like keep your friends close but your enemies closer. That that sort of rhetoric. Yeah. I mean, I wonder though, you actually bring up the analogy of CD and vinyl for music. I mean, we're seeing a great renaissance of vinyl, and that's been happening for a while now. I think everyone in the music industry can actually say that CDs were just a useless tool, a bit like, I don't know, uh mini-disc uh that came along. It was another way for people to buy the same music that they'd always had, uh you know, on the premise that they've always gonna get a better quality of sound. I wonder, now to bring it back round to fashion, if that's gonna also play a part here where people are just gonna get so I don't know, disenchanted with buying stuff online, getting stuff through in the post, finding out that it doesn't really fit, finding that the returns policy's rubbish, when that could have all been circumvented if they went down the shop in the first place, felt the fabric in their hand, and just bought the product on what they saw and felt. I didn't really have a question at the end of that, Marco. Sorry, I just wanted to go on a little bit of a talk.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Well, the question the question is uh giving a c uh a comparison with what happened in music, so that today many people are going back to the Viney Records, I can foresee the same uh horizon for the fashion stores because it's true, the convenience of having something at hand or having the chance of having a shipment directly at home with no harassment of uh with no problems in going and dressing and taking a car. Well, it's convenience. But for the same similar convenience that people now are back to find in vinyl records, I foresee a future, a positive future back to bricks and mortar, because people cannot do without them. The online is convenience. Online is having speed, is having uh the chance of comparing prices and similar products in uh in uh in a few minutes instead of taking a car and traveling and moving from one place to another. So there's it there is a kind of convenience price, distance, time. But in the end, the real touch with the product is something that only the bricks and mortar can provide in the same way. We are men, after all, made of two hands, two arms and two legs, and so and some dangly bits, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

Marco, hallelujah! I mean that is that is great to know that we're actually going to be going back to the high street because only in the last week have I just bought some goods online, the girlfriend's bought some goods. It's but you say it's convenient and it's time. How convenient is it for people to then repackage these goods? I had to schlep all the way back to the post office, get new postage stamps, send it all back. I mean, that's real time taken out of the day. That's not convenient. But I digress, Marco, sorry, I've gone off piste. Um getting back to fashion. I want to know, Marco, what do you think about the big stores that are now having real trouble? Like the MSs here in this country, Debonums, Toys R Us have gone down. Why are the big names struggling? Are they not utilising all of the floor space that they have? Are they becoming complacent and just relying on the fat of the business?

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Well, in a way that can be one of the problems because I've seen recently in London also a House of Frazier that is not passing a good time, for example, and many other players, the big ones that used to be very brilliant. The problem for me is in the lack of ability of updating the retail format. So is yes, how to exploit the footage, how to exploit the available space, but more relevant is how to become new and relevant in the eyes of the customers. Since they can find the same things everywhere, you have to give an identity to your style in selling to your retail format. So one time you said bigger is better. Today I would say smaller is better at a certain extent. But not only. The most important thing is that you are able to tell a story. And the story is not the label of a story anymore, is not the sign of a story anymore, is the personality, is the identity, is the relationship you can have with your customers. This is the problem for what I see.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

So is the trouble that these big multi-stories just don't have a good enough narrative to tell their customer?

SPEAKER_01 11:18

They are standard. They are standard. I can come, I can come to Oxford Street and pay a visit to Selfridges, but then when I mean, what's new, what's attractive, what's different? Okay, it's Selfridges and he's self-ridges. That's uh that's it. So there's nothing there's nothing added as a value to uh invite me to go and pay a visit. What can I find up there? If I compare, obviously, it's difficult to make this comparison between Selfridges and Harrods, and I don't even know if it's totally polite to do that. But Harrods, in its huge dimension, is a place in which people can always have another pleasure to go and visit. It's like going to visit a museum, a monument. In the end, you buy something. You don't need actually nothing, but you enter, you pay this, you look around, and in the end you come up with buying something.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

Harrods have now got a Brioni concession in there. Another great reason to go see Harrods. Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Are you a fan of Brioni? When I when I choose my when I choose my things, I'm a very traditional guy. When I choose my things, I go to a tailor, not necessarily a brand. I like to have my Bispock suit, to have it made by my tailor, and so I'm a kind of customer. I I teach how to sell fashion and luxury, but personally speaking, I have my personal orientation. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

Each to their own. No, no apology necessary, each to their own. But I tell you what, while we're talking about tailors, tell us what do you think about e-tailors? And do you think that's a threat at all to your traditional tailors, like Savilro, for example?

SPEAKER_01 12:53

Well, it's a compromise between uh good quality garment and something that can fit on your own body, but it's not actually bespoke, he's made to measure. So you can choose your measurements, you can uh give your details like the buttons, like the colors of the stitchments and whatever, but it's totally different from the experience of being in a tailored laboratory and choosing with your own hands, with your own fingers, the softness of the fabric and the fit of a jacket. It's totally different. And by the way, during Mask Forum, um the guy from Isaiah, that is a highly reputed uh menswear brand here in Italy, said that the e-commerce for them is not actually e-commerce, is a way to complete an offer. But for sure, you cannot intermediate the uh the skills of a tailor and the ability of a tailor through uh through a desktop or through a website. That's impossible. But you know, uh I have to say something. Several is a brand in itself. So every tailor operating in Several, since they're there, they deserve to be there, and so they are part of a brand. And um what can I say? It's a brand like Florence's for Renaissance. You go to London, you look, you think of a tailor, you immediately recall to Several. And so, in since each one of them has a different style, and they are not all traditional, because I've seen so many tailors in Several that are making very, very updated and innovative styles using and matching different colors, very unusual sometimes, but they are still in the track of craftsmanship. The element that they all have in common is the handmaids of craftsmanship. Then each one of them can offer a different style. So it's very important to have trunk shows in order to have the chance for each one of them to uh represent and to perform their own uh individual identity and uh characteristics.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

What would be the equivalent for Savalro in Italy, please, Marco? Is it in Florence?

SPEAKER_01 14:58

Well, no, we don't have actually a Savro in Florence. Uh, but we have many, let's say, schools of tailorship, like in Naples, like in Florence as well, and in Milan and Rome, not to not to forget Rome, but in the crowd of mensware in Italy is Naples.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

I once did a I was asked actually to do an article on what is the fashion capital. Is it Milan or is it Rome?

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Please don't ask me that. I would say to be very honest, let's say that Florence, also in terms of uh a productive district, can be can be considered the the capital of leather goods. Every luxury uh brand from France, from Italy, from everywhere, do come here to make their handbags, like the names of Bulgarie, the names of Chanel, the names of uh Dior, they are all operating uh here in Florence. So Florence is the capital of luxury, and uh let's say Milan is the capital of fashion. Can I say that?

SPEAKER_00 15:59

Margot, you can say what you want on this podcast, mate. I wanted to ask you uh specifically about imagine I'm starting an e-commerce business. I mean I have done in the past. Would you recommend that I open a pop-up store to begin with to test the market?

SPEAKER_01 16:16

It depends mainly on the product. Uh selling, for example, apparel is not always a good idea to start with e-commerce because you have to sell something that people want to fit in advance, want to try in advance. Once your brand is established and once you have start uh set connections with your customers, you can also operate with an e-commerce. But I would say that for that product, the bricks and mortar story is crucial, is necessary. So, to answer to your question, yes, a pop-up store can be absolutely interesting to start creating a physical connection between your product and your customers, and then you can easily, well, easily, let's say operate uh online, but you need a touch point, a physical touch point to start with.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

But you have so many stores that have done so well online yet they haven't moved over to bricks and mortar yet. I'm thinking of the likes of Boohoo, for example. Yeah. Now, is that just like a one-off fluke in in terms of business models, or do you think we'll see more of those?

SPEAKER_01 17:17

I would say that every brand is a story apart. We have in Florence the example of Luisa Vieroma, you probably know this name, is one of the most longest established multi-brand boutiques in Italy. And recently, like in the late 90s, they started having an online business. Well, today the online business uh represents 90% of their sales and worldwide. So it's a very interesting experience of a physical store, bricks and mortar store, that thanks to the solid connection to Florence and to uh the Florentine clientele, they had a chance, also exploiting the, let's say, the visit, the exposure of Florence during the fashion weeks to access a broader uh clientele using and exploiting very positively the online opportunity. Today, Luisa Viroma is a store that has a turnover of circa 200 million euros per year, and 90% of that is made online.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

Are they popular amongst all generations?

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Well, they are. Honestly, they are. They switched to uh new uh merchandising systems, to uh different selection of brands also. They are innovative, they are also talent scouts, they constantly uh look for new uh emergent designers, not saying pioneering, but for sure they have changed an orientation to a different segment of market that they used to have before. In the past times, they were a solid multi-brand boutique for a very selective client that could spend lots of money in the most selective uh couturier brands and the likes of them. Today they have a much younger segment of market, they have a much younger proposal, and when you enter the store, the store itself is full of touch screens when you they don't have in stock uh the garment, they can ship it at home. So they have what I call the online integration done very, very nicely and very effectively.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Cool. Well, it sounds like Argus. Yeah, sure. Let's take another business model, for example. You have the likes of Zara, who are quite unique in the way that they can turn around a fashion trend within two weeks. They can get a design done and get it out to market, so they they they've almost done away with seasons. Do you think other brands, other companies are gonna try and latch onto this model if they haven't done so already?

SPEAKER_01 19:49

Uh doing it already, well, it's not called fast fashion, but uh company like Dolce Gabbana or Gucci or the big ones, they have the pre-collections, the pre-spring, then the spring, then the pre-summer, then the summer, then the cruise collection. If you count them, uh we are counting five, six new collections per season. And the selling season is made of four months. And so six collections in four months, how much is that? Is 1.5 per month? Is not Zara, but this is a global trend, the one of uh revitalizing and uh updating constantly the offer in the stores. So the thing that once used to be called fast fashion is a new way, uh faster way to stay connected with the customers.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

I have actually had my own e-commerce store and my own physical store in the past. I've worked in an independent menswear store. What was quite interesting was when we were coming around to Black Friday and we'd obviously get uh stockpiles of loads and loads of stock and then it would fly out, but then obviously the repercussions of that was people were so shopped out that you'd feel like this complete uh uh void of consumer sales directly afterwards. We'd also do these what we would call free for two weekends, where people could we'd send a text out to our consumers, they would come in and they can get free garments for the price of two. And we would probably do that once a month. Uh again, over the space of a year, we would we soon have gone on that people were just waiting for these texts to come through to uh utilize these bargains. Uh uh on on the in the discussion, uh what was interesting was uh going back to Black Friday was how it was said that you have to re-educate your customers every three years. Uh once you do and once you oversaturate these big deals, it takes a long time to kind of stop doing these deals and telling the customer no, no, you can't have these huge discounts anymore. Do you mind elaborating on that?

SPEAKER_01 21:47

You know, uh it's a bad habit, you said it correctly. But who started that? Well, why season says in general? Why Black Fridays? Why why uh the other opportunities of our I must say something. First of all, if people look for bagains, they are not interested in the product but in the price. And the other companies they used to have massive, massive discounts during season 6. Of course, they cannot pretend that people can buy at a full price when they can know that after having waited just for a couple of months, they have the same product in the same assortment in sizes and colors at 50% off. So it's not easy to re-educate. I would say it's impossible. Once the people associate a brand with a commercial strategy, that becomes part of the brand itself. So I cannot expect the Primark one day will become luxury. Primark is Primark, and I can find bargains all the time. And if as a US habit of having the Black Friday after the uh Thanksgiving Day, because Thanksgiving Day is on Thursday, and on Friday is the day after. So after having had a time with the family and praying and thanking God for being blessed, and the day after you celebrate and you spend your money, this is something that started in other states and then is a sort of an excuse to attract people instead of offering values, replacing values with prices, with uh discounts. This is not a way. There is a word that I'm not stopping to repeat every day in my classes that is value. We are not selling products, we are not selling jackets, people don't need jackets or suits or nothing. People need something else, need something more. And this something more is made of storytelling, is made of engagement, is made of being part of a community. Is the secret of Gucci. Gucci is not created any miracle. They simply created a solid engagement with a new segment of market, and they are going in that direction. People at Gucci don't wait for discounts. People at Gucci wait for the new products, for the new ideas. They wait for that. In Gucci Garden, in Gucci Garden, there is another great experience of Gucci held here in Florence. In Gucci Garden, you can find exclusively unique products that are not sold in other uh monobrand boutiques in the world. And they know that can be found exclusively at Gucci Garden. Imagine if they can ask for some discounts. No way. They are looking for something new, and this is the crucial value. Innovation, stay updated, and identify your segment of market. This is the only recipe for sus for success.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

Yeah. Marco, also just out of curiosity, what is the take now with Dulce and Gabbana after their marketing misstep out in Asia? Have things calmed down now?

SPEAKER_01 24:46

Well, no. The thing has already been forgotten for what I know. And in the beginning, in the beginning, it was uh well, it's very controversial to talk about Dolce Gabbana. The other day they announced that they are back on paper magazines to have their advertising. So cut the online and go back to the to the paper magazines. Like that. What is the meaning of this? Is I don't want to say it's communication, but it's communication. So is uh branding. We go in a different direction. What is politically correct to say nicely of uh other traditions and other cultures? Well, we go to the other direction, for good or bad. And this is a decision. They are today recognized for this, let's say, bad attitude of Mr. Stefano Gabbana, but it's not a bad attitude, it's an attitude. Like it or not, that's Dolce Gabbana. And Dolce Gabbana may surprise, may, may be sometimes also controversial, but it's Dolce Gabbana in the end. Nice products, great products made by him, by tailors. I have personally visited the laboratories and the manufacturing sites of Dolce Gabbana is amazing. You see a company of 1.4 billion euros, more no bit less, but they are working like a fashion house, like a small laboratory. They have a great commitment in the quality of the products. On the other hand, they communicate in their own way, like it turned out.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

Yeah. Professor Marco Chriski there. Thank you so much for coming onto the podcast. Thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed it. So until next time, remember it's only fashion people, and you're never fully dressed without a smile.